Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
|
 Posted:
Dec 02, 2015 - 23:24 |
 
|
So I probably get asked in at least half my matches when coaching dwarves is "Why don't you have any slayers?" I have played nearly 50 games with Dwarfs here as well as playing them on TT and before finding FUMBBL on BB1 and I have never used slayers, ever. I also don't recall seeing another team without them so I thought it would be an interesting topic to talk about. The number one reason I don't use them is positioning, the dwarven game is based on it. My first thought when I looked at the roster all those years ago was that frenzy seems counter to what dwaves are about, it's not the best skill to keep positioning tight. So right from the off slayers were dropped.
For a bash team ST3 is not amazing so dauntless is obviously designed to help with those big guys or ST4 players but I have not noticed a problem really by not having it from the start. Dauntless is instead one of the first skills after Guard MB for the first blocker to make three normal skill ups. That one blocker seems to me to be enough. Plus if you get enough guard like you should it's not often you will be facing a -2D against you even early doors. The only thing you miss is a bit of MB earlier with it appearing as second Blocker skill instead of first slayer skill. But an AV9 blocker is going to survive longer planted next to a Big guy than an AV8 Slayer enabling the Blocker to make more use of dauntless. Take pro as the fourth skill and you're golden, that base is covered. Slayers are not really designed in their role in my mind to mark guys yet dauntless is really best used when you plant it next to the big guy all game in a manner where he is always blocking you away from your cadge. So Frenzy can get in the way, Dauntless either is useless or distracts from your slayers searching for the weakest lowest AV players to crunch off the pitch and get the numbers in your favour. Yes it can help make gaps you can push through more easily but I don't think it's worth losing the control if it goes wrong. I don't think there is good synergy there. Though obviously most people seem to like them.
I like playing dwarfs probably because I love chess, the tactical positional game appeals to me and having to concentrate so much on positioning it brings me back to chess. For me the benefits outweigh the negatives by dropping Slayers as well as suiting my play style that comes from playing chess a lot. That's probably why I like no Slayers.
If anybody else runs with no Slayers it would be interesting to know as well as what people think about the strategy in general since I usually get asked about it in game chat a lot. |
|
|
Uedder
Joined: Aug 03, 2010
|
| Posted:
Dec 02, 2015 - 23:34 |
|
I disagree. Frenzy is important in a positional war, because it helps create spacing: moving a player of 2 squares instead of one (while also moving your own) is very good. Also it helps to set up/perform surfs, and therefore adds positional value, making all kind of opponents be wary of the sideline.
Best use of troll slayer is for blitzing, not marking. Ma5 helps with that (and that's a big plus). When you're in a checkmate position, guardlocked, outmanuvered etc.. that's when your troll slayer kicks in.
He's also the primary killer against agility, if only because he's more likely to reach fast players. And frenzy also helps with the lack of initial tackle.
Troll slayers are amazing players imo and really add something to a dorf roster. |
|
|
sheepycollins
Joined: Sep 21, 2015
|
| Posted:
Dec 02, 2015 - 23:45 |
|
I might be a bit biased as if it were possible i would take the experimental slayer team :p as my team is based on the slayer warhammer fantasy rule
Look Snorri Trolls!
But if you don't take troll slayers how do you propose to kill all the trolls?
I have only played literally a hand full of games with dwarves but my slayers far out way the blitzers imho my Str 4 slayer is a sexy beast.
I couldnt see not taking them, ever, and would replace a slayer before any other positional |
_________________
Things I like and things I hate? I don't feel like telling you that. My dreams for the future? Never really thought about that. As for my hobbies... I have lots of hobbies. |
|
pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 00:31 |
|
i think one t-slayer, as a blitzer and frenzy threat, is important. i would always for for 2, but i can understand the lammer minmax of just picking 1.
then again, in the box, perhaps the 10 blockers and a runner model is viable.
stupid dorfs |
_________________
 |
|
Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 00:34 |
|
| sheepycollins wrote: | I might be a bit biased as if it were possible i would take the experimental slayer team :p as my team is based on the slayer warhammer fantasy rule
Look Snorri Trolls!
But if you don't take troll slayers how do you propose to kill all the trolls?
I have only played literally a hand full of games with dwarves but my slayers far out way the blitzers imho my Str 4 slayer is a sexy beast.
I couldnt see not taking them, ever, and would replace a slayer before any other positional |
I suppose that leads me to how I use my Blitzers. To how I play they are faster blockers who can sometimes score. I blitz with whoever makes sense for the situation, I never focus on blitzing with the blitzer and nor would I with the Slayers. Which would make them less useful to me.
Any player with +ST is sexy! |
|
|
Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 00:47 |
|
A VERY popular strategy is to have just 1 slayer and 1 runner in Dwarf teams (although I prefer all Dwarven positionals personally). The idea is to limit the amount of AV8 on the field when playing an aggressive contact game with Dwarves. Look at PurpleChest's teams for examples.
Personally I like to play with all 6 (non DR) positionals, for the simple reason that I want to have as much MA on the pitch as possible.
Generally I keep a loose formation in defence with all my positionals guarding at the back of the field (think 6 sweepers instead of 1 sweeper). Having all of the faster positionals in the back-field allows me to respond to the drive as the play progresses.
On attacking drives, faster players gives me more opportunities to aggressively roll the cage forward and I am less likely to have a stalled drive.
I find frenzy on the troll slayers to be excellent for my purposes. Typically the slayers hang around the back field (in relative safety) and blitz stray opponents. The frenzy helps to push the strays towards the sideline and away from my end zone and the extra block makes them much more likely to pow the opponent. Dauntless is a situational skill, but it is sometimes useful when receiving to knock down annoying trolls on the line of scrummage.
The downside of trollslayers in my opinion is their lower armor and higher base cost which tends to make them a target. The ability to field frenzy and have a bit more speed on the field makes up for this downside, and clever positioning can protect the troll slayers to a degree. |
_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
|
sheepycollins
Joined: Sep 21, 2015
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 00:52 |
|
| Matthueycamo wrote: | | sheepycollins wrote: | I might be a bit biased as if it were possible i would take the experimental slayer team :p as my team is based on the slayer warhammer fantasy rule
Look Snorri Trolls!
But if you don't take troll slayers how do you propose to kill all the trolls?
I have only played literally a hand full of games with dwarves but my slayers far out way the blitzers imho my Str 4 slayer is a sexy beast.
I couldnt see not taking them, ever, and would replace a slayer before any other positional |
I suppose that leads me to how I use my Blitzers. To how I play they are faster blockers who can sometimes score. I blitz with whoever makes sense for the situation, I never focus on blitzing with the blitzer and nor would I with the Slayers. Which would make them less useful to me.
Any player with +ST is sexy! |
On that note just played another game with that team and not only did my slayers push me to victory my +MA runner is now a +MA and +ST runner, 7438, now thats a sexy stat line |
_________________
Things I like and things I hate? I don't feel like telling you that. My dreams for the future? Never really thought about that. As for my hobbies... I have lots of hobbies. |
|
Antithesisoftime
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 01:17 |
|
Dwarves are an odd team, as far as positionals. Blitzers make better Markers than blitzers. Blitzers need Doubles to get the most out of them.
Troll Slayers are Killers. They're made to force position with frenzy, and to kill anything in their way. If you have to mark with one, send him in with a guard. Ideally, you wanna blitz with your best killer each turn.
Then again, Some dwarves would rather maul you instead, and use every trick in their toolbox. And never underestimate the power of a Fouler |
|
|
PaddyMick
Joined: Jan 03, 2012
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 01:18 |
|
The Deathroller is the best blitzer |
|
|
Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 01:21 |
|
| sheepycollins wrote: | | Matthueycamo wrote: | | sheepycollins wrote: | I might be a bit biased as if it were possible i would take the experimental slayer team :p as my team is based on the slayer warhammer fantasy rule
Look Snorri Trolls!
But if you don't take troll slayers how do you propose to kill all the trolls?
I have only played literally a hand full of games with dwarves but my slayers far out way the blitzers imho my Str 4 slayer is a sexy beast.
I couldnt see not taking them, ever, and would replace a slayer before any other positional |
I suppose that leads me to how I use my Blitzers. To how I play they are faster blockers who can sometimes score. I blitz with whoever makes sense for the situation, I never focus on blitzing with the blitzer and nor would I with the Slayers. Which would make them less useful to me.
Any player with +ST is sexy! |
On that note just played another game with that team and not only did my slayers push me to victory my +MA runner is now a +MA and +ST runner, 7438, now thats a sexy stat line |
That is until you see my +MA +ST +AG Runner!  |
|
|
Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 01:22 |
|
| Uedder wrote: | I disagree. Frenzy is important in a positional war, because it helps create spacing: moving a player of 2 squares instead of one (while also moving your own) is very good. Also it helps to set up/perform surfs, and therefore adds positional value, making all kind of opponents be wary of the sideline.
Best use of troll slayer is for blitzing, not marking. Ma5 helps with that (and that's a big plus). When you're in a checkmate position, guardlocked, outmanuvered etc.. that's when your troll slayer kicks in.
He's also the primary killer against agility, if only because he's more likely to reach fast players. And frenzy also helps with the lack of initial tackle.
Troll slayers are amazing players imo and really add something to a dorf roster. |
I think most coaches with a bit of sense end up with a player or two with SS to combat frenzy. Which greatly negates the crowd push potential. Two slayers means you have to put one in contact anyway if you want to maximise blocks.
Whilst when is a BG ever going to be at the side of the pitch? So you either blitz the BG in the center and can't crowd surf with frenzy or you stick one next to the BG to block so you can make use of Dauntless. They are two different jobs rolled in to one position, it makes great fluff as it's what one would expect but it's not the best combination you could have to make best use of both skills at once from a tactical point of view.
Same problem with focusing on blitzing with them, it's at some point sub optimal during the game where a blitz with another player would make sense but you then might have these two slayers with nobody to block wasted for the turn.
Finally one might be doing something a little wrong if you don't have a single player in the blitz range of agility teams. If it's at that stage you should probably give up and go home, I have never found it an issue. Slayers don't start with tackle anyway and probably won't get it until usually second or sometimes third skill (unless you are in a dodge heavy league) which actually makes blockers best at blitzing agility with a young team. There is no lack of tackle with Dwarves, worst case scenario you start with 5 players with it. I myself usually start with 9 because I like to get a few TDs on blitzers for some early skills first.
I don't often find myself in positions where a do or die Slayer move would have saved me. I can't remember one recently certainly not in this WIL season. Blockers with dauntless marking ST4+ guys however has happened on 4 matches out of 5 so far. Something that Slayers probably would not have not managed as well. But dauntless on a blocker and Slayers seems a bit overkill on the skill and also a bit of a waste of a skill choice.
They can be great players just that my judgement is that other players can do some of their jobs better and the things that can't be done have more negatives to my play style than positives. |
|
|
Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 02:14 |
|
| Grod wrote: | A VERY popular strategy is to have just 1 slayer and 1 runner in Dwarf teams (although I prefer all Dwarven positionals personally). The idea is to limit the amount of AV8 on the field when playing an aggressive contact game with Dwarves. Look at PurpleChest's teams for examples.
Personally I like to play with all 6 (non DR) positionals, for the simple reason that I want to have as much MA on the pitch as possible.
Generally I keep a loose formation in defence with all my positionals guarding at the back of the field (think 6 sweepers instead of 1 sweeper). Having all of the faster positionals in the back-field allows me to respond to the drive as the play progresses.
On attacking drives, faster players gives me more opportunities to aggressively roll the cage forward and I am less likely to have a stalled drive.
I find frenzy on the troll slayers to be excellent for my purposes. Typically the slayers hang around the back field (in relative safety) and blitz stray opponents. The frenzy helps to push the strays towards the sideline and away from my end zone and the extra block makes them much more likely to pow the opponent. Dauntless is a situational skill, but it is sometimes useful when receiving to knock down annoying trolls on the line of scrummage.
The downside of trollslayers in my opinion is their lower armor and higher base cost which tends to make them a target. The ability to field frenzy and have a bit more speed on the field makes up for this downside, and clever positioning can protect the troll slayers to a degree. |
I can understand that. Though they are still pretty slow. I see MV5 as too slow to be worth it from a movement perspective, if Slayers were MA6 that might tip the scales for me. Maybe they should be as players that wear no armour, what are they weighed down by that makes them equal to Heavily amoured Blitzers?
Maybe it's also different defensive styles that split choices too, unless it's the last turn or three I will usually purposely set up with both flanks open. Rather than spread out, all my players will usually be within 4 squares of the center row. Either forcing the quick score or pressing the oppo into a tight scrap on one side of the pitch. If I get really lucky they fall for the trap and extend the BC out too far or get a turnover halfway through their turn and he can be cut off and taken down. So for that I don't need all the speed I could bring.
On offence I play with two Runners and keep both Blitzers in the cadge so that's only one MA4 maximum in the cadge. RRs are not a problem with dwarves I find so to RR the odd failed GFI on that Blocker if needed is fine. |
|
|
uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 02:19 |
|
The thing is, by your own admission, you havent actually tried using a slayer in your teams. Uedder is right, it does add another tactical dimension, chain pushing is essential to advanced dwarf tactics and frenzy helps a lot with that. You want your guard/SF in the right places or the +str Claw warrior out of contact with your beards or to create a chance to block a second elf that turn, then you will find slayers really useful to create those opportunities.
Try it, and see! |
|
|
Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 03:15 |
|
@Matthueycamo
Every little bit of MA helps! Going from MA4 to MA5 is massive. I also keep my players quite central and deep in defence. I still find I need all the MA I can get!
Of course it all comes down to playing style, no one can tell you it does or doesn't work for you, we are just relating our own experience.
As for caging, my cages are a far more fluid affair than you are describing. As I move and roll my cage down field, I rarely end up with the same players forming my cage from 1 turn to the next. Generally I constantly probe any gaps with my players whether or not I can move my cage into them. The more players I can have somewhat down field the easier I can make big territory gains by remorphing my cage using whoever is available on a given turn. I certainly find even 1 extra square of movement as extremely useful to the way I play. |
_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
|
NerdBird
Joined: Apr 08, 2014
|
| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 05:33 |
|
@Matthueycamo
I think you will find on FUMBBL you will lose often without any Slayers. Sorry, but Slayers help you control the pitch by keeping opponents away from the edges. If they do go towards the edge they can be surfed.
The common build is MB, Pile On, Jugs/Tackle for me and then stand firm. I always go with 2 slayers because 1 will eventually perish and I need a second already with a few skills. You get a slayer with +ma and they are gold. They may not be great for killing bug guys, but they are great for blitzing/blocking st4 guys (BO's and other beasts with a +st).
I am the opposite, I only use 1 runner and see no reason for a second as I usually build a blitzer that can be both. Also, man up and run some Dwarfs in the box and see how you do without a slayer or two. Half the time AV8 and AV9 in the box are equal  |
|
|
|
|
| |
Gnome Box ranking pa...
Search
