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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 25, 2016 - 23:34 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
ph0enyx13 wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
ph0enyx13 wrote:
It seems like big guys in general are better in leagues than in box


Ok, so can you draw a conclusion about that?


That most of the big guys aren't valuable TV wise, but are more valuable than inducements, generally, and are generally good at helping to protect your team from attrition


Indeed about the TV part and protecting your team from attrition (or causing attrition, thus saving your team from attrition).

So in a box environment where it is very TV driven, they aren't that common. If your team gets hit hard, then your next match up will be easier.

However that isn't the case with league, where heavy attrition will most likely be disastrous. Thus league teams will be more likely to put up with the extra weight because there the next match up isn't TV driven.

So, although both 'can be' good, they're not quite worth the TV. Which also means they neither are likely to be a clincher on which roster to take. As highlighted gutters/blitzers dancers/ag4 are more likely clinchers (from a competitive stance).


I guess more anecdotally than anything else, that guy going to the work cup in BB2 knew he was going to play a lot of bash and not much strip ball and the Rogre served him pretty well. And I've heard guys winning NAF tournaments based around the 2 war dancers and having a tree to slow down the rate of in game attrition
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 25, 2016 - 23:36 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:

So in a box environment where it is very TV driven, they aren't that common. If your team gets hit hard, then your next match up will be easier.


As an errata, that is not necessarily true. Due to the rookie protection, if your team is older, and is the only team available to play a high tv team at that point, then you're not necessarily getting an easier game at all, in fact, it's quite easy to get into a sequence of wholesale slaughters.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 26, 2016 - 02:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok there is that, and there has been a few famous examples of what you state. So......'in most cases your next game will be easier' As I don't play box, I can't actually comment on that situation.

Could you afford 2 dancers and a tree in a NAF tourney team? Woodies are very popular and very strong. However I very much doubt I'd take a tree, particularly if it's resurrection. I'd much prefer numbers and that's nearly 2 linos.
Seany18



Joined: Mar 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 26, 2016 - 02:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally, I don't think the Rogre is worth his cost. He could be 3 linerats in TV which gives you a great buffer to cas particularly an injury on your most valuable guy (who is a great target av8 no block no TS) and if you have a Mb or MB/claw vermin are you really going to blitz with the WA + loner?
So the Rogre does have its uses in early tv match ups particularly vs bash. As for Mallack, if you watched his quarter and semi final games I can tell you the rogre's unreliability has done him more harm than good (and if you arent going to 4+ 2+ 2+ a dwarf runner ball carrier with him why have him Razz)

As for the tree. Wood elves are my favourite team and I am a big advocate of the tree. however I do not think it is often worth starting with the tree or getting one early TV as his value is diminished before teams start getting their kill skills in motion. He does provide exactly what I want in the big guy though which WA players do not for me, be a road block and prevent cas (for 120k compared to a 70k elf defo worth it for maintaining numbers with av10)

As for Yehtee, similar problem as the rogre for me. However, imo more viable with claw for those tough bash match ups and an extra player to give guard (you're gonig to need every guard you can get)

I like the idea of Rogre for Undies. I would however prefer a 2nd warpstone troll Razz
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 26, 2016 - 05:00 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
Ok there is that, and there has been a few famous examples of what you state. So......'in most cases your next game will be easier' As I don't play box, I can't actually comment on that situation.

Could you afford 2 dancers and a tree in a NAF tourney team? Woodies are very popular and very strong. However I very much doubt I'd take a tree, particularly if it's resurrection. I'd much prefer numbers and that's nearly 2 linos.


The version I heard the guy won the tourny, (it was resurrection), but his team had both dancers, a tree, and his only reroll was a leader on the thrower
boruppeter



Joined: Sep 11, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 26, 2016 - 05:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Seany18 wrote:
Personally, I don't think the Rogre is worth his cost (...) and if you have a Mb or MB/claw vermin are you really going to blitz with the WA + loner?
This isn't helpful at all. Yes, if comparing an unskilled RO to a Blitzer with 2 skills (1 doubles even) then yes, the Blitzer with 1 ordinary and 1 doubles skill is better. But then: If I compare an unskilled Blitzer to a 1 ordinary and 1 doubles skill RO, then yes, I would definitely blitz with a ST5 frenzy, clawpomb player and definitely not with a block only Blitzer, even if the clawpomb player has Loner and needs a 2+ to get going...
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 26, 2016 - 19:06 Reply with quote Back to top

See, I'm almost neutral on the ROgre, and I only blitz with him once a half or so. I don't think his value is in his hitting ability, but in his space control. If you position him well and move with him early if you're not going to block with him, a failed 4+ WA roll is no biggie. And you can often push lots of guys into his zone, where his tail can keep them there (or even better, force turnovers and eat rerolls). If you can keep him tied up with two linemen, the rest of your Skaven have one more man to play with in the net, and that's huge.

He's also a good source of Guard. If you protect him a little, he can protect your men and line up nasty blitzes with that ClawPOMB Blitzer or whatever.

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Seany18



Joined: Mar 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 26, 2016 - 21:08 Reply with quote Back to top

boruppeter wrote:
This isn't helpful at all. Yes, if comparing an unskilled RO to a Blitzer with 2 skills (1 doubles even) then yes, the Blitzer with 1 ordinary and 1 doubles skill is better. But then: If I compare an unskilled Blitzer to a 1 ordinary and 1 doubles skill RO, then yes, I would definitely blitz with a ST5 frenzy, clawpomb player and definitely not with a block only Blitzer, even if the clawpomb player has Loner and needs a 2+ to get going...

Is it not helpful? If you have a good storm vermin then do you really need a rat ogre? That is what I'm addressing. Why have a RO at 1400+ tv if you have an MB/pomb/cpomb vermin? even if you get block/ claw on the rogre is it worth having him compared to a levelled vermin. IMO no, and that is the point I am making. Talking about a claw PO rogre vs a MB claw vermin? I know which I'd prefer to blitz with and which is easier to level.

I accept that people can use the rogre well early TV but medium tv when you have better blitzers that do not have WA + loner and have block I do not value the RO

I hope that helps illistrate my point
boruppeter



Joined: Sep 11, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 26, 2016 - 23:31 Reply with quote Back to top

@Seany18: Actually, no. Because having a developed Storm vermin or a developed Rat Ogre isn't the choice you have to make - you can have two developed Strom vermins and a developed Rat Ogre in the same team. So the question isn't if a developed Storm Vermin or a developed Rat Ogre is better, but if a Skaven team is better with a developed Rat Ogre (and high TV), or if the very same team would be better without a developed Rat Ogre (and accordingly lower TV).
And I say, especially in [B], 2 players with ClawPOMB are good, 3 players with ClawPOMB are better... so 'Yes!' to the Rat Ogre...
Seany18



Joined: Mar 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 26, 2016 - 23:45 Reply with quote Back to top

boruppeter wrote:
the question isn't if a developed Storm Vermin or a developed Rat Ogre is better, but if a Skaven team is better with a developed Rat Ogre (and high TV), or if the very same team would be better without a developed Rat Ogre (and accordingly lower TV).

Seany18 wrote:
If you have a good storm vermin then do you really need a rat ogre? That is what I'm addressing.

... Yes I think we agree on the question

As for the High TV low TV argument as I said in my original post I think a lineman and 2 subs is a better use of TV than a rat ogre
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2016 - 18:17 Reply with quote Back to top

The question may be can you regularly get your 2dbs hits on who you want with Stormvermin and no Rat Ogre. If against a lot of guard or s4/5 you may not. Even with the single Rat Ogre it isn't always easy other than picking off lone players.

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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2016 - 13:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I guess it would also depend on how soon you can roll a doubles on a storm vermin
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2016 - 17:47 Reply with quote Back to top

ph0enyx13 wrote:
I guess it would also depend on how soon you can roll a doubles on a storm vermin


The ROger is similarly doubles starved though.

It's actually worse if you want block or tackle for example.
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