thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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 Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 00:06 |
 
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| koadah wrote: | | Not every sports team is trying to be Manchester United. Cheating is part of the game. |
I smell a false dilemma. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 01:56 |
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| uzkulak wrote: |
My personal view of BB is that we should do everything we can to reward and encourage larger rosters as I believe this is better for competitive game play, softens the impact of cpomb etc and increases tactical options through player specialization. |
One of the best ways to deal with the cpomb issue is to simply avoid the TV range where cpomb is common and a 11 men roster helps to achieve this goal.
A large roster may soften the impact of cpomb, but if it's made by expensive players (like elves) the chance are it will be a high TV roster (thus making facing cpomb more likely) and that it will be very hard to keep a bench over time due to injuries and SE, while if a large roster is made by lot of cheap players they will probably have poor stats/skill access (like Zombies and Thralls) and it will be hard and not TV-efficient to make specialized players from them. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 03:23 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | uzkulak wrote: |
My personal view of BB is that we should do everything we can to reward and encourage larger rosters as I believe this is better for competitive game play, softens the impact of cpomb etc and increases tactical options through player specialization. |
One of the best ways to deal with the cpomb issue is to simply avoid the TV range where cpomb is common and a 11 men roster helps to achieve this goal.
A large roster may soften the impact of cpomb, but if it's made by expensive players (like elves) the chance are it will be a high TV roster (thus making facing cpomb more likely) and that it will be very hard to keep a bench over time due to injuries and SE, while if a large roster is made by lot of cheap players they will probably have poor stats/skill access (like Zombies and Thralls) and it will be hard and not TV-efficient to make specialized players from them. |
Like I said, coaches have found ways to cope and its in direct opposition to this platonic BB ideal.
On 40k regen players though...they don't need or want to be specialized beyond fouling and kicking. I've built a monster necro team with menmax and fodder. |
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ph0enyx13
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 04:07 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | uzkulak wrote: |
My personal view of BB is that we should do everything we can to reward and encourage larger rosters as I believe this is better for competitive game play, softens the impact of cpomb etc and increases tactical options through player specialization. |
One of the best ways to deal with the cpomb issue is to simply avoid the TV range where cpomb is common and a 11 men roster helps to achieve this goal.
A large roster may soften the impact of cpomb, but if it's made by expensive players (like elves) the chance are it will be a high TV roster (thus making facing cpomb more likely) and that it will be very hard to keep a bench over time due to injuries and SE, while if a large roster is made by lot of cheap players they will probably have poor stats/skill access (like Zombies and Thralls) and it will be hard and not TV-efficient to make specialized players from them. |
Like I said, coaches have found ways to cope and its in direct opposition to this platonic BB ideal.
On 40k regen players though...they don't need or want to be specialized beyond fouling and kicking. I've built a monster necro team with menmax and fodder. |
How do you not minmax Necro, Undead, and Khemri? Zombies and Skeletons don't have the ag or the mb to consistently get spp. Even the other 40K linemen like Thralls and Rotters won't live long enough to get more than 31 spp, if they survive that long. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 04:18 |
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| ph0enyx13 wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | uzkulak wrote: |
My personal view of BB is that we should do everything we can to reward and encourage larger rosters as I believe this is better for competitive game play, softens the impact of cpomb etc and increases tactical options through player specialization. |
One of the best ways to deal with the cpomb issue is to simply avoid the TV range where cpomb is common and a 11 men roster helps to achieve this goal.
A large roster may soften the impact of cpomb, but if it's made by expensive players (like elves) the chance are it will be a high TV roster (thus making facing cpomb more likely) and that it will be very hard to keep a bench over time due to injuries and SE, while if a large roster is made by lot of cheap players they will probably have poor stats/skill access (like Zombies and Thralls) and it will be hard and not TV-efficient to make specialized players from them. |
Like I said, coaches have found ways to cope and its in direct opposition to this platonic BB ideal.
On 40k regen players though...they don't need or want to be specialized beyond fouling and kicking. I've built a monster necro team with menmax and fodder. |
How do you not minmax Necro, Undead, and Khemri? Zombies and Skeletons don't have the ag or the mb to consistently get spp. Even the other 40K linemen like Thralls and Rotters won't live long enough to get more than 31 spp, if they survive that long. |
Cause I kept buying zombies and skellies?
Honestly, it's cause I like to foul and you need players to do that. I have better winning percentages with all 3 teams you mentioned than my global average.
Why do I like fouling with those teams? Snowball effect and making up for my positional deficiencies by filling the box and freeing up other players to not deal with some prone jamoke next turn. |
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ph0enyx13
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 15:37 |
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Call me a dick, but I'd make sure not to give an ag team a free apo and if they somehow got one I'd make sure to foul enough that they get crippled regardless. I really hate elves. |
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ph0enyx13
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 16:50 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | ph0enyx13 wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | uzkulak wrote: |
My personal view of BB is that we should do everything we can to reward and encourage larger rosters as I believe this is better for competitive game play, softens the impact of cpomb etc and increases tactical options through player specialization. |
One of the best ways to deal with the cpomb issue is to simply avoid the TV range where cpomb is common and a 11 men roster helps to achieve this goal.
A large roster may soften the impact of cpomb, but if it's made by expensive players (like elves) the chance are it will be a high TV roster (thus making facing cpomb more likely) and that it will be very hard to keep a bench over time due to injuries and SE, while if a large roster is made by lot of cheap players they will probably have poor stats/skill access (like Zombies and Thralls) and it will be hard and not TV-efficient to make specialized players from them. |
Like I said, coaches have found ways to cope and its in direct opposition to this platonic BB ideal.
On 40k regen players though...they don't need or want to be specialized beyond fouling and kicking. I've built a monster necro team with menmax and fodder. |
How do you not minmax Necro, Undead, and Khemri? Zombies and Skeletons don't have the ag or the mb to consistently get spp. Even the other 40K linemen like Thralls and Rotters won't live long enough to get more than 31 spp, if they survive that long. |
Cause I kept buying zombies and skellies?
Honestly, it's cause I like to foul and you need players to do that. I have better winning percentages with all 3 teams you mentioned than my global average.
Why do I like fouling with those teams? Snowball effect and making up for my positional deficiencies by filling the box and freeing up other players to not deal with some prone jamoke next turn. |
What are you even talking about? I'm saying most of the team's with 40k linos are min maxed because it would be harder to build a team that isn't min maxed. You don't even really need to cycle zombies because they are too hard to skill anyway and rotters die before you cycle them anyway too |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 17:06 |
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Min/max often implies running with an 11 player roster.
I think you guys actually agree about how to build/play cheap lineman teams, but one doesn't consider playing over 11 as min/maxing while the other seems to.
Min/maxing necro/undead is about how many ghouls you use, and or using FGs. Not about zombie numbers really.
Though firing any 2 skill zombie could be part of it too. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 17:38 |
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You'll even see people dropping wights! WIGHTS. Although I'm not sure if that still qualifies for the "max" part of minmax 
Honestly, the real giveaway for most teams is 1/0 reroll + leader. You're effectively bargaining your ability to protect a player in order to shave a minimal amount of TV off your team (especially so if leader is a double); and living on the edge in regards to in-game events.
I kind of find the idea of regen players being naturally inclined to minmax a bit amusing - everyone has had a zombie that just won't die before; and let's face it, even if you bloat your teams, cumulative attrition will cull eg. an orc team's tv more easily than a regen teams.
The topic is just, slightly, ever so-teeny-wee-bit less tedious than cpomb though. If cpomb is godwin's then minmax is Reductio ad Hitlerum! |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 17:54 |
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| ph0enyx13 wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | ph0enyx13 wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | uzkulak wrote: |
My personal view of BB is that we should do everything we can to reward and encourage larger rosters as I believe this is better for competitive game play, softens the impact of cpomb etc and increases tactical options through player specialization. |
One of the best ways to deal with the cpomb issue is to simply avoid the TV range where cpomb is common and a 11 men roster helps to achieve this goal.
A large roster may soften the impact of cpomb, but if it's made by expensive players (like elves) the chance are it will be a high TV roster (thus making facing cpomb more likely) and that it will be very hard to keep a bench over time due to injuries and SE, while if a large roster is made by lot of cheap players they will probably have poor stats/skill access (like Zombies and Thralls) and it will be hard and not TV-efficient to make specialized players from them. |
Like I said, coaches have found ways to cope and its in direct opposition to this platonic BB ideal.
On 40k regen players though...they don't need or want to be specialized beyond fouling and kicking. I've built a monster necro team with menmax and fodder. |
How do you not minmax Necro, Undead, and Khemri? Zombies and Skeletons don't have the ag or the mb to consistently get spp. Even the other 40K linemen like Thralls and Rotters won't live long enough to get more than 31 spp, if they survive that long. |
Cause I kept buying zombies and skellies?
Honestly, it's cause I like to foul and you need players to do that. I have better winning percentages with all 3 teams you mentioned than my global average.
Why do I like fouling with those teams? Snowball effect and making up for my positional deficiencies by filling the box and freeing up other players to not deal with some prone jamoke next turn. |
What are you even talking about? I'm saying most of the team's with 40k linos are min maxed because it would be harder to build a team that isn't min maxed. You don't even really need to cycle zombies because they are too hard to skill anyway and rotters die before you cycle them anyway too |
I'm outlining how easy it is to not minmax and rather menmax with the aforementioned teams, why I do it, and the results of what I'm doing. How could you possibly not follow that?
And how do you prove the claim you're making? Certainly my teams are concrete contradictions to what you're saying. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 18:06 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | I'm outlining how easy it is to not minmax and rather menmax with the aforementioned teams, why I do it, and the results of what I'm doing. How could you possibly not follow that?
And how do you prove the claim you're making? Certainly my teams are concrete contradictions to what you're saying. |
I think what he's saying is that the skills fall on the skill players. That's been my (limited) experience with Box Undead. Sure, it's only 25 games, but so far all of my Skeletons and my recruited Zombies (I didn't start with any Zombies, they're all trophies; I fired one, but I'm not going to do that again) have accrued a combined 10 SPP apart from MVPs, and one skill on a zombie (plus a Skeleton with 5 MVPs who's got Wrestle and DP). Generally there are 4 on the pitch at a time: for 4 guys to combine for 0.2 Cas per game and nothing else, that's not exactly SPP hogging. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 18:19 |
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That's true of every team - those players with the skills/stats to get SPPs will get them more often than players without. That axiom of BB has what to do with minmaxing as a we understand it? |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 18:25 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | I think what he's saying is that the skills fall on the skill players. That's been my (limited) experience with Box Undead. Sure, it's only 25 games, but so far all of my Skeletons and my recruited Zombies (I didn't start with any Zombies, they're all trophies; I fired one, but I'm not going to do that again) have accrued a combined 10 SPP apart from MVPs, and one skill. Generally there are 4 on the pitch at a time: for 4 guys to combine for 0.2 Cas per game and nothing else, that's not exactly SPP hogging. |
Yeah, but I don't really think that's true either. Yes, you can't reliably throw a garbage time pass with a 5spp zombie to get a skill, but you know what, that is something you elect to do with every ag3/4 lino. You can just avoid doing so if you want to keep them unskilled.
In terms of overall spp gain, I'd argue that having a regen roll for every injury makes a zombie much more likely to stick around long enough to accrue SPP than, for example, a human lino, who's coach will not only be preferentially sticking him where it hurts most turns, may be attempting to keep him low skilled too, and will not be giving him apo use in 99% of circumstances.
Your undead team might have low spp on zombies, but you've also got the rest of the positionals maxed out  |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 18:26 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | I'm outlining how easy it is to not minmax and rather menmax with the aforementioned teams, why I do it, and the results of what I'm doing. How could you possibly not follow that?
And how do you prove the claim you're making? Certainly my teams are concrete contradictions to what you're saying. |
I think what he's saying is that the skills fall on the skill players. That's been my (limited) experience with Box Undead. Sure, it's only 25 games, but so far all of my Skeletons and my recruited Zombies (I didn't start with any Zombies, they're all trophies; I fired one, but I'm not going to do that again) have accrued a combined 10 SPP apart from MVPs, and one skill on a zombie (plus a Skeleton with 5 MVPs who's got Wrestle and DP). Generally there are 4 on the pitch at a time: for 4 guys to combine for 0.2 Cas per game and nothing else, that's not exactly SPP hogging. |
25 games are not enough to see the effect of MVPs stacking on fodder linemen, Cas are not the only source of SPP hogging, and making a Dirty Player expensive stacking another skill is not TV-efficient.
A Skeleton with 2 skills costs as 2 unskilled Skeletons/Zombies.
While just 1 Skeleton with 2 skills is not too bloaty,
when you start to have 2 or more Skeletons with 2 skills each you will notice the bloat.
You could have 4 Skeletons for the same TV of 2-skills Skeletons, at high TV it's better to have a deep bench than 2 or more 2-skills Skeletons. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 28, 2016 - 18:53 |
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I have 3 skill, 4 skill and 5 skill zombies on my Box Undead team, ForgottenVillains. So it certainly happens with enough games if you allow it. It seems we have left the original topic behind now. |
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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
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