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SeriliKirico



Joined: Sep 13, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 06:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi, coaches.

I've done some research already, and it seems there is basically no ready open-source software which would allow you to setup your own customizable league system bound to some client software to actually play in it. I also know that Fumbbl's developers are totally unwilling share their own code with others.

I'm thinking about creating sort of CRP testbed for myself where I could implement any crazy ideas I want to playtest, without bothering others with request and waiting for them. Like, implementing content from the latest rules (BB2016), or my own ideas, so I could test how they fit after that by playing in there.

I'm not a developer myself, so at best I could modify a ready system if it's written in some easily readable language, like python or php, or java, at least (not perl or ruby, for sure..). So trying to take over some very raw outdated implementation and complete it myself is not an option. I also don't think joining Fumbbl's developers team is an option, as I neither do have qualifications, nor I want to adhere to some schedules and need to act within some limits set (as I need directly opposite, some sort of playground where I could implement any my crazy ideas, and proceed without any pressure by time constraints)

Are there any options like that out there, anywhere?
Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 09:05 Reply with quote Back to top

It would be helpful to...

a) Give a bit more detail on what you would like to try as the opportunities for custom league rulesets here are vast.

b)Play some games here so you understand the client and what it can/cannot do.

c)Have a go at setting up your own league system here to see if it does what you want it to do (I am happy to help you out if you need it).

d)Try not to be too negative about the 'totally unwilling fumbbl developers' before you have experienced this site as this is just untrue. Don't bite the hand that feeds you and all that. Smile

To be honest, with the custom rulesets and rosters available here you should be able to do what you need...

https://fumbbl.com/p/ruleset

...and welcome to FUMBBL
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 12:32 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't really see how you can do what you want unless you are a developer or are willing to become a developer.

What you want sound like a pretty big undertaking.

Grod must have some client code for his Grod Bot. I believe that is java.

Arry's code is open source though it is not finished and would probably need a bit of redesigning and refactoring. (javascript).

For the back end you could use OBBLM. I don't know what the current state of the code is. The NAF use it so good I expect.

@Throweck: I thought 'totally unwilling' was fairly accurate. Wink
I'm not sure why that is 'negative'. There are good reasons for not wanting to share your code. This has been covered many times.
Maybe it should have been 'almost totally unwilling'

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Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 12:51 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
@Throweck: I thought 'totally unwilling' was fairly accurate. Wink
I'm not sure why that is 'negative'. There are good reasons for not wanting to share your code. This has been covered many times.
Maybe it should have been 'almost totally unwilling'


Yeah, fair point. Perhaps I read it wrong.

The 'negative' referred to the attitude towards the developers before reaching out to them as a new arrival. But that's how I interpreted it and not how it was meant perhaps.

I understand about not sharing code, of course.

I was just trying to be helpful Smile
SeriliKirico



Joined: Sep 13, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 13:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Throweck wrote:
It would be helpful to...

a) Give a bit more detail on what you would like to try as the opportunities for custom league rulesets here are vast.


I know them, I checked fumbbl's options pretty thoroughly, and though there are a lot of them, they are mostly of "tweak" type. Like, change so or so a bit, add a new little thingy there and there. What I had in mind is totally new, rather complex game mechanics which are not implemented in fumbbl, or anywhere, only in my head Smile And I checked suggestions boards as well, enough to understand anything that big and crazy hardly will be adopted there, as all development is done by volunteers and their capabilities are limited. I also don't want to wait for somebody, or convince/ask somebody to do that for me. My experience of making suggestions on similar boards taught me that chances of other projects adopting your views are quite low. People have different views and priorities, that's normal. That's why I want my own thing.

I'm not sure how "totally unwilling" is that much negative.. I've done some research on forums here, and I saw previous discussions on that topic, and I believe that phrase summarizes it pretty well. They rejected it clearly and unconditionally several times already. I indeed have rather different opinion on the subject, as my job keeps me close to open source world, but I tried to keep it to myself, and don't want it to be the part of this discussion. They gave their answers, and trying to convince them again won't work, most likely.
Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 14:06 Reply with quote Back to top

SeriliKirico wrote:
Throweck wrote:
It would be helpful to...

a) Give a bit more detail on what you would like to try as the opportunities for custom league rulesets here are vast.


I know them, I checked fumbbl's options pretty thoroughly, and though there are a lot of them, they are mostly of "tweak" type. Like, change so or so a bit, add a new little thingy there and there. What I had in mind is totally new, rather complex game mechanics which are not implemented in fumbbl, or anywhere, only in my head Smile And I checked suggestions boards as well, enough to understand anything that big and crazy hardly will be adopted there, as all development is done by volunteers and their capabilities are limited. I also don't want to wait for somebody, or convince/ask somebody to do that for me. My experience of making suggestions on similar boards taught me that chances of other projects adopting your views are quite low. People have different views and priorities, that's normal. That's why I want my own thing.

I'm not sure how "totally unwilling" is that much negative.. I've done some research on forums here, and I saw previous discussions on that topic, and I believe that phrase summarizes it pretty well. They rejected it clearly and unconditionally several times already. I indeed have rather different opinion on the subject, as my job keeps me close to open source world, but I tried to keep it to myself, and don't want it to be the part of this discussion. They gave their answers, and trying to convince them again won't work, most likely.


That makes it all a little clearer to me. Thanks.

I wish you luck with your endeavours! Very Happy
SeriliKirico



Joined: Sep 13, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 14:15 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

Grod must have some client code for his Grod Bot. I believe that is java.

Arry's code is open source though it is not finished and would probably need a bit of redesigning and refactoring. (javascript).

For the back end you could use OBBLM. I don't know what the current state of the code is. The NAF use it so good I expect.


Thanks, koadah. Yes, with current state of affairs it seems like a too big undertaking to me. I'm about to drop it completely. NAF's version of OBBLM seems decent, though and is written in php which I can work with. Javascript client, on the other hand, is no-go, don't want to deal with such atrocities Smile I understand it was chosen to run it in the browser, but I don't want to deal with js )) Too much pain. I know Grod's work, and java may be acceptable (it a bit similar to C I'm familiar with), so may be I'll check this one as well.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 14:58 Reply with quote Back to top

SeriliKirico wrote:
koadah wrote:

Grod must have some client code for his Grod Bot. I believe that is java.

Arry's code is open source though it is not finished and would probably need a bit of redesigning and refactoring. (javascript).

For the back end you could use OBBLM. I don't know what the current state of the code is. The NAF use it so good I expect.


Thanks, koadah. Yes, with current state of affairs it seems like a too big undertaking to me. I'm about to drop it completely. NAF's version of OBBLM seems decent, though and is written in php which I can work with. Javascript client, on the other hand, is no-go, don't want to deal with such atrocities Smile I understand it was chosen to run it in the browser, but I don't want to deal with js )) Too much pain. I know Grod's work, and java may be acceptable (it a bit similar to C I'm familiar with), so may be I'll check this one as well.


"such atrocities"? Shocked

Are you sure you are not trapped in year 2000? Wink

I am using typescript. Right now wouldn't want to use anything else.

Java is not even allowed on some platforms. AFAIK you're better off with C# for cross platform now.
Javascript all the way. Evryone is gonna have a browser. Wink

If Grod is letting his code out I'd like a look. Falesh originally had it in C# but I expect that a lot of work has gone in since then.

IF you can get hold of the BOTOCS (java) code, that would be a great start. The dev went quiet when GW starting sending out C&D letters. Sad

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Secret League - SLUMBBL Shield - 16th November!
SeriliKirico



Joined: Sep 13, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 15:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Throweck, thank you, I'll need it.

koadah, well I do have some bias when it comes to js. My previous encounters with it weren't nice, and I found it very clumsy, unstable and unwieldy development environment. I don't know much about things like node-js and typescript, so may be they make it more easy to work with it indeed. Does Arry's code use something like this? Can I somehow run it easily as a standalone app using the node-js framework, for example (I've got impression it's what node-js for)?

Edit:
Oh, wait. I see it involves perl at some point..Perl is even worse. Every time I see perl code something is dying inside me.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 16:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that Arry actually uses perl or php on the back end. That probably suits you. No typescript on the front.

Heh heh. I was there in the days of "use as little javascript as possible". But hey, that was the wild, wild, West.
Typescript makes javascript look much more like a 'proper' language. You still have to know about notorious javascript gotchas.

Edit: Ooops. You don't like perl either. Can't blame you really. I knew I'd need to port that side of it if I was going to do anything. Wink

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Secret League - SLUMBBL Shield - 16th November!
SeriliKirico



Joined: Sep 13, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 17:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm checking his code and it seems to me that perl part is mostly related to site's backbone and doesn't seem like there is much of functionality in it; most of functionality seems to be implemented in client itself with js (though I'm not sure how it does check that the other client doesn't use some modified/hacked ruleset without server's help) So may be it's relatively easy to rewrite it in, say, python instead?
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 19:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I'd probably go Node myself. Wink

It needs to do the die rolls on the server. The server can verify whether the moves/state are valid. That may well be easier if you have the same language on the client and server.

Though if it is only for you and a few buddies you may not need to bother initially.

I suspect that Kalimar is working on a JS version. He and Christer would have have the best advice.

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Secret League - SLUMBBL Shield - 16th November!
SeriliKirico



Joined: Sep 13, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 21:20 Reply with quote Back to top

I've been able to get it up and running. It looks decent, on surface, indeed. But that enormous amount of perl libraries I had to compile without slightest clue of what I'm doing makes me very sad..
arry



Joined: Feb 26, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 22:47 Reply with quote Back to top

In fact the whole game logic is in Perl. Javascript is just for the UI. I understand your prejudice against Perl, but for the record, I was writing nice Perl, not the stuff of nightmares.

As for the libraries, you'd have similar experience in Node, Java, or Python. Depending on somebody else's libraries is not the exclusive field of Perl.
SeriliKirico



Joined: Sep 13, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2017 - 23:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi, arry. Nice work with that client, it's a pity it was abandoned, indeed. There is basically no proper, fully-featured and completed opensource BB package (client + league manager) around at all, it just doesn't seem right. Anybody who wants to run something different from fumbbl or cyanide must become programmer and invest tons of efforts and time before he even will get to fun stuff and will be able to actually implement new mechanics and game modes. This hampers growth of BB community, imo.

arry wrote:

As for the libraries, you'd have similar experience in Node, Java, or Python. Depending on somebody else's libraries is not the exclusive field of Perl.


That I understand. My point was it's too much Perl for me. I don't want to learn Perl, I don't want to know purpose of those libraries, please daddy, no )) Do you think it could be relatively easy refactored in some more mainstream language, like Python? I thought about using CherryPy or Django.
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