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Poll
Hourly box activations?
Permantly change box to hourly activations
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
Permantly change box to 30mins peak, hourly offpeak
3%
 3%  [ 3 ]
Trial change box to hourly activations
3%
 3%  [ 3 ]
Trial change box to 30mins peak, hourly offpeak
27%
 27%  [ 22 ]
Change nothing
62%
 62%  [ 50 ]
Total Votes : 80


MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 21:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Antithesisoftime wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
You want to pick? Nice, play in League, but don't get CR points for that.


I can't recall the last time I got to pick and dodge a team in a league. In fact, NBFL this season, I've faced lizards, dwarfs, chorfs, 2x orcs, undead. And high elf

The rest of my season is orc, undead, chorfs, chaos, wood elf, pro elf, and goblins.

Tell me again what matches I get to pick in league

When I wrote League I was referring to League division, not to private scheduled leagues.
Of course you can't dodge teams in a scheduled private league.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 21:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Rbthma wrote:

Forcing R players into B makes absolutely no sense - risk alienating a division that has 50% of the FUMBBL matches to please one that has 20%? Probably a good way to nosedive the total amount of matches on FUMBBL.

If people are not forced to play in Black Box they will not discover that it is less bashy than it used to be.
If still people want to arrange matches via gamefinder they can do it in L division, and the traffic on FUMBBL will not change, or are you implying that CR is meaningful and important and that gaining/losing CR makes people play in a division?

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 21:54 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Fairness is over rated. You desire it because it reinforces preconceived notions about your skill. You're a good enough coach that you should welcome unfair challenges as a true test of your skill. Anything less is self indulgent masturbation. Time to grow Dakka.

In competitive division fairness is a must, otherwise the division is not competitive (therefore creating a logical contradiction), there is no need to shift the debate to the personal plan.
If fairness is overrated then let's throw to the wind any kind of pairing and let's play with totally randomly paired teams, without taking into account the TV.
Would people like to play that? I think not.


Tourneys are actually competitive since you can't wuss out and play for a tie.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 21:54 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
If people are not forced to play in Black Box they will not discover that it is less bashy than it used to be.


WOWZA!!!! So over the top.

I could make a list of 20 things that forces people to do "stuff" to make them realizes the error of their way of thinking. I will not bore you with the list.

Is that not the first thing that the Communist did? Force you to agree that Communism is so much better than Capitalism and Monarchy/Dictatorship. Trust me, the "people" will come around to that line of thinking.

Shocked Surprised Smile

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 21:59 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:

Tourneys are actually competitive since you can't wuss out and play for a tie.

Tourneys have the overtime, normal games don't have the overtime, no tourney match can be a tie, therefore you are encouraged to risk more than you would in a normal match.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 22:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh no...The dreaded word has been spoken/written.

competitive

Good, sirs, this word is not be uttered in a civilized discussion such as this. That word is only to be spoken in a hushed voice in the back of a smoke filled pub/bar while drinking heavily.

It is one of the unwritten rules of FUMBBL Forum rules. I believe it is #43.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 22:03 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

If fairness is overrated then let's throw to the wind any kind of pairing and let's play with totally randomly paired teams, without taking into account the TV.
Would people like to play that? I think not.


Man I miss the good old days of 1st and 2nd edition of Blood Bowl where this is exactly how it was.

Would the masses like to play that? Sure, that is why we are on, what, the 7th edition of Blood Bowl and moved on to BB2016.

So, yes the people have spoken. They like that.



Surprised Laughing

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 22:08 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
@licker: I actually agree with much of what you say there.

licker wrote:
Is this a chicken and egg question?


To some extent, yes. The thing is, if part of the reason for the decline in games played is the quality of the matchups, I think it will hard to reverse that trend without confronting the 'quality' issue as well.


The problem is we are already on the 'not enough matches' side of the equation. You can't just magically improve the 'quality', which I still don't know what that is supposed to mean. You have to get more activations first, which should take care of 'quality' almost by itself (assuming quality has something to do with TV discrepancies).

JellyBelly wrote:
licker wrote:
This isn't about 'quality of game' because what does that even mean?


Surely you have to admit that there are good BB matchups and bad BB matchups? I mean, you must have been on the receiving end of enough 'bad' Box matchups? Presumably that's part of the reason you don't play there?


Actually no, I think there are just BB matchups. Good and bad are incredibly subjective and depend on hard to agree on notions of 'fairness'. However, the B matching mechanic does have a definition of what 'fair' or 'good' match ups are and tries to create those. I usually just go with that definition since that's the only one which is actually working right now.

I mean some people think that the only 'fair' matchup throws so many inducements at an underdog, based off of the differential records of the teams, that they can buy multiple wizards or have as many star players as they want.

Yes, those people are idiots, but they still get to voice their opinion about what is 'fair' or 'good' like the rest of us who are not clinically insane.

JellyBelly wrote:
The rest of your post, I very much agree with.


I'm actually quite an agreeable person, though I should post more from my Purple Chest account apparently Wink

JellyBelly wrote:
licker wrote:
Might be time to rethink the entire premise.


Yes! This is what I was saying a couple of pages ago Smile


Exactly, there's a debate on the details and a lot of hand wringing to be done, but without a buy in from Christer we're all just having some conversations in the wind. Not that I'm calling out Christer, I think he does a marvelous job, and ultimately it's his baby anyway.

JellyBelly wrote:
Btw, I don't know what the heck CCL/COL are - I don't play much on BB2.


CCL is the competitive open league in BB2. It takes the top racial finisher (and sometimes runners up) and invites them into a KO tournament at the end of the season (~6 weeks generally). COL is just the open league, there are no prizes or anything in it, just a leaderboard which resets on the same time line as the CCL resets. They both use the same MM system which is similar to how B schedules games (without going into details).

CCL restarts every new season by pushing all the teams from the last season into COL (or most people probably just delete them).

Again, whether anyone likes how it works or not is irrelevant, it's a well defined system which encourages competitive play and is moderated (so it's more FUMBBL like than the pointless concession fest which COL has become).

One of my points has always been that for either R or B to really be successful (which I agree is subjective) there needs to be a more active understanding from the coaches of what the expectations are for playing in either. Currently, anyone is free to approach those leagues however they want, for whatever personal satisfaction they take out of that approach. And that sounds great, but, as we've seen time and time again, the issues we discuss here continue to arise, and could be handled much more easily if the purpose of those divisions was actually better defined (if not restricted, as in multi-activation for B).

People don't like that in general, but they also don't offer any other kinds of solutions typically. My guess is that for most of them the changes wouldn't really affect them very much anyway, either because they already don't play, or because they don't really care that deeply how they play. They just think they do Wink
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 22:15 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Cloggy wrote:
Time to accept that people play where they do because it's where they have the most fun. Pure and simple.

For sure getting easy wins is fun, I don't doubt that.


Way to dig into that trench dude. Getting easy wins is actually just as easy in the Box as it anywhere else.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 22:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Agreeing with Licker just doesn't feel right.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 22:19 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:

Tourneys are actually competitive since you can't wuss out and play for a tie.

Tourneys have the overtime, normal games don't have the overtime, no tourney match can be a tie, therefore you are encouraged to risk more than you would in a normal match.


Yeah, you actually have to play to win in a tourney. Which is what makes it competitive. And why you avoid tourneys. And why your literal interpretations and fallacious evaluations of fair and competitive are a bad basis for conversation.


Because you've constructed a very limited self reinforcing idea of what measures skill in this game and its not coincidental that the conditions you deem fair are exactly how you like to play and have an inherent meta game advantage in.

It is categorically impossible to have something in BB be fair and competitive outside of giving everyone identical teams at a set TV and doing a tourney or league. Dont believe me? In what universe is it a fair match for Dakka to play his best teams against rookie coaches fielding stunties at TV parity? But you will say it is in fact fair because you purposefully and dishonestly only consider two criteria for fairness - TV distance and being played in Box.

And truth be told, you could absolutely have more competitive and fair matches in ranked if you were able to get past trying to stack the deck in your favor before the game starts with your team building and team selection. Believe it or not, some of us are just capable of doing it after years of playing. What do you think accounts for that? Wink


Last edited by mrt1212 on Oct 12, 2017 - 22:35; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 22:33 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
Oh no...The dreaded word has been spoken/written.

competitive

Good, sirs, this word is not be uttered in a civilized discussion such as this. That word is only to be spoken in a hushed voice in the back of a smoke filled pub/bar while drinking heavily.

It is one of the unwritten rules of FUMBBL Forum rules. I believe it is #43.


Exactly - the format of how matches are arranged don't make something competitive. It can do the opposite as my Dakka playing rookie stunties implies. Competitive is seeing how well you do with identical tools against other people. Not having an inherent advantage in experience, tools, etc etc. Competitive isn't whooping on some noob goofing around who stumbled into Box with halflings. Those matches are made all the time.

Secondly fairness isn't solely informed by how close the teams are in TV. Again, 1500 TV Pro Elves coached by Dakka vs. my goblins at 1500 isn't a 'fair' match unless you use TV exclusively to determine fairness.

I can go around in circles here but I will try to avoid it by putting it bluntly as possible - Labels don't define things, the factors and variables we can test labels against define things and Box doesn't pass muster on being fair or competitive despite the label. In practice too many unfair and uncompetitive matches are made in spite of the effort to deliver them.

Box is okay at what it does but deriving anything meaningful in regards to coaching ability from playing in it is foolish.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 22:35 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Agreeing with Licker just doesn't feel right.


Yeah, I know! Although, it was predicted by Nostradamus, just before the universe implodes ... Razz

*pop!*

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 22:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Cloggy wrote:

Way to dig into that trench dude. Getting easy wins is actually just as easy in the Box as it anywhere else.

And yet you keep on playing in Ranked and not in Box.
Since, according to you, winning is as easy in Box as in Ranked, why you don't you play more in the Box?
There must be something that induces you to play in Ranked and not in Box.
And why most coaches have a better win rate in Ranked compared to Box (given two relatively even match samples played in Ranked and Box)?

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Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 22:53 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Rbthma wrote:

Forcing R players into B makes absolutely no sense - risk alienating a division that has 50% of the FUMBBL matches to please one that has 20%? Probably a good way to nosedive the total amount of matches on FUMBBL.

If people are not forced to play in Black Box they will not discover that it is less bashy than it used to be.
If still people want to arrange matches via gamefinder they can do it in L division, and the traffic on FUMBBL will not change, or are you implying that CR is meaningful and important and that gaining/losing CR makes people play in a division?


I made no comment about CR at all.

The point is that attempting to force(how are you going to do that anyhow?) coaches to play in the Box would more than likely result in those coaches leaving FUMBBL to go play something else. Making it so that teams can jump in and out of the scheduler as they like gives them more options surrounding how they like to play not less.
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