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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 19:57 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
Christer wrote:
Fun fact about this thread. Over 50% (111 of 216) of the posts in here are written by 5 people.


I think it's natural for a discussion like this to be somewhat dominated by those that feel most passionately about it. It would be nice to hear from a wider range of people though.


What is your passion though? You might be passionate for something but it certainly doesn't seem to be tourney play, QED.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 20:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Bazakastine wrote:

So box can make similar teams.

It's doable but still harder. Play Elves in the Box if you don't trust me (but you seem to prefer Ranked, even if building Elven high TV teams can be done in Box as well, according to you, weird, isn't it?).
I had TV 1900 DE (that could have been used for a Major), one bad game:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3953522
and they dropped to TV 1620 and now they are 1450.
The same goes for my HE.
You could say: "Stop playing your team if you think it's ready for a Major, just shelf it", but my reasons are:
1) if I want to improve my team further I need to play games (you know, your ball carrier with AG 5 could need another game to get Leap etc.);
2) I want to play my Elf teams, and while in Ranked I could have chosen a non-bashy opponent, in Box I don't have such luxury;
3) Although Elves are strong indeed at high TV, I don't think their performance vs bash teams increases a lot at high TV (I think that bash teams, at that point, have counters to Dodge with Tackle and to Strip Ball with high ST Blodger ball carriers and Guard spam, some Dirty Players etc.).
This is even more true without all the inducements implemented (Horatio) and without the Wizard.

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Last edited by MattDakka on Jan 18, 2018 - 20:10; edited 2 times in total
Nachtogen



Joined: Jan 03, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 20:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Since I've been on and off on this site for over 15 years now and since I love tournaments, I'll chip in as well. I've read most of the 15 pages, and seriously, what a load of **** in there.
I'm not going to go into the whole R vs B discussion as I think it's stupid. Each division has it's flaws and it's merits. And since I moslty am a R coach, but just played my 200 games for Trophy I can make statements about B too. Both divisions allow cherrypîcking in it's own way, deal with it.

To be honest, what I like is giving extra meaning to a game. As in the Trophy Games, my own fluff or Tournaments. Because random games are just ... well ... random. And unless it's for team building it doesn't add much for me.

So a post that started as a mere announcement about tourneys turned into a flawed discussion imo.
What this should be about is how to make the site and the community better by having good tournaments which most of the community loves and likes to spec. That's what makes us grow.
And I think that these changes are positive. I think it's interesting to see R and B teams compete in majors.

And one last point, what I really would like to see return is instant smacks. We might need more tourney staff for them and some dedicated tourney people. But I loved the empty saturdays where p4m, emphasy and me started some instant smacks.

Ahh, the good old irc days...

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Chaos was the law of nature; Order was the dream of man.
Bazakastine



Joined: Mar 21, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 20:21 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakke I agree that it is harder but it is doable and there are plenty of examples. There are 2 box wood elf teams with a TW over 2500 in the Warpstone open for instance. Also I see that you are saying its easier in ranked despite only playing 354 games there which yes isnt an insignificant number but if my 294 games in box are not enough to have an opinion on comparing the divisions than your 354 should not be as well.

The point is does this matter? I can see that plenty of box teams have gotten to high TV which should be enough to say that its doable even if it might more difficult. The other thing is I was competing in brawls this year with that undead team (which is why they were the only box team i didnt retire when i started the box challenge) and oh look at this. https://fumbbl.com/p/group?op=view&at=1&group=7922&p=tournaments&show=43428. There is an underpowered 1780 TV box team taking down Hessens Clowns (down 920 in TV) WMDs (down 420 in TV) and Coco Loco (down only 200 in TV). How many ranked smacks have people playing teams that big back to back to back.

Its possible to win at huge TV differences. Its possible to build high TV box teams and I can link you plenty if you would like. The other thing is this is about tourneys. How many tourneys have you played in? Yes you entered the FC but have you been playing in brawls and box majors because I have participated in some of those. So if I am not qualified to talk about box because i have only played 294 games there then I would say you are not qualified to talk about what this thread is about which is tournaments.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 20:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I like when the most notorious philosophically-opposed-to-team-building coaches pipes up to say that team building is hard for him. Gee, ya don't say!
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 20:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Bazakastine wrote:
MattDakke I agree that it is harder but it is doable and there are plenty of examples. There are 2 box wood elf teams with a TW over 2500 in the Warpstone open for instance. Also I see that you are saying its easier in ranked despite only playing 354 games there which yes isnt an insignificant number but if my 294 games in box are not enough to have an opinion on comparing the divisions than your 354 should not be as well.

The point is does this matter? I can see that plenty of box teams have gotten to high TV which should be enough to say that its doable even if it might more difficult. The other thing is I was competing in brawls this year with that undead team (which is why they were the only box team i didnt retire when i started the box challenge) and oh look at this. https://fumbbl.com/p/group?op=view&at=1&group=7922&p=tournaments&show=43428. There is an underpowered 1780 TV box team taking down Hessens Clowns (down 920 in TV) WMDs (down 420 in TV) and Coco Loco (down only 200 in TV). How many ranked smacks have people playing teams that big back to back to back.

Its possible to win at huge TV differences. Its possible to build high TV box teams and I can link you plenty if you would like. The other thing is this is about tourneys. How many tourneys have you played in? Yes you entered the FC but have you been playing in brawls and box majors because I have participated in some of those. So if I am not qualified to talk about box because i have only played 294 games there then I would say you are not qualified to talk about what this thread is about which is tournaments.


Thing is. If the change is mainly only going to please people who already play a lot of tourneys, well, that is not going to increase or improve tourneys.

If.

You could give them one Box only tourney. If no one plays in it, bin it.

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Secret League Grand Championship - Championship Swiss - 1st March
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 20:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Bazakastine wrote:
Also I see that you are saying its easier in ranked despite only playing 354 games there which yes isnt an insignificant number but if my 294 games in box are not enough to have an opinion on comparing the divisions than your 354 should not be as well.

Really not hard to find a games with Elves in Ranked, and for sure, you can refuse the bad offers.
No need to play thousands of games in Ranked to understand that.
Bazakastine wrote:
The point is does this matter?

Yes, because choosing/refusing games allows a better/easier team building (meta-game advantage), that gives an in-game edge.
You need just 6 SPPs on that WD to get the next skill?
Just wait on GF and pick a game vs a non bashy team/bad coach.
If I want to skill up a player before a Major I have to risk to play a game vs an unknown team/coach that could ruin my team.
This is harder now, without PO, but still possible.
Bazakastine wrote:
I can see that plenty of box teams have gotten to high TV which should be enough to say that its doable even if it might more difficult.

Example: before joining a Major, my Elf team plays its last 5 matches vs random teams in the Box, while my Major opponent from Ranked picks his last 5 games to put the last finishing touches on his team by playing vs non bashy teams.
Chances are that my team could get bashed during those last matches, while my opponent, by picking/dodging, has an advantage over me in terms of roster before our match even started.
It's easier to build a team through picking than by playing in a matchmaking only environment, and this doesn't make a good competition.
Bazakastine wrote:
Its possible to win at huge TV difference.

Sure, never said it's impossible, but the emphasy should be more on coaching and less on having a super developed team. Especially considering that BB is even less balanced at high TV than at mid-low TV.
And moreover, why should I be the guy struggling to win vs a super ranked team just because I decided to build my team in an environment where I could not pick easy games?
Bazakastine wrote:
So if I am not qualified to talk about box because i have only played 294 games there then I would say you are not qualified to talk about what this thread is about which is tournaments.

I'm not talking about tournaments, I'm talking about the unfairness of a competition merging R and B teams.
By the way, playing in Black Box, it's a bit like playing in a tournament. Every game I play it's vs an unknown team and opponent.
The same can't be said about people picking their games in Ranked.

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Nachtogen



Joined: Jan 03, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 21:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Could we try to stay on topic please...

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Chaos was the law of nature; Order was the dream of man.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 21:11 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Bazakastine wrote:
MattDakke I agree that it is harder but it is doable and there are plenty of examples. There are 2 box wood elf teams with a TW over 2500 in the Warpstone open for instance. Also I see that you are saying its easier in ranked despite only playing 354 games there which yes isnt an insignificant number but if my 294 games in box are not enough to have an opinion on comparing the divisions than your 354 should not be as well.

The point is does this matter? I can see that plenty of box teams have gotten to high TV which should be enough to say that its doable even if it might more difficult. The other thing is I was competing in brawls this year with that undead team (which is why they were the only box team i didnt retire when i started the box challenge) and oh look at this. https://fumbbl.com/p/group?op=view&at=1&group=7922&p=tournaments&show=43428. There is an underpowered 1780 TV box team taking down Hessens Clowns (down 920 in TV) WMDs (down 420 in TV) and Coco Loco (down only 200 in TV). How many ranked smacks have people playing teams that big back to back to back.

Its possible to win at huge TV differences. Its possible to build high TV box teams and I can link you plenty if you would like. The other thing is this is about tourneys. How many tourneys have you played in? Yes you entered the FC but have you been playing in brawls and box majors because I have participated in some of those. So if I am not qualified to talk about box because i have only played 294 games there then I would say you are not qualified to talk about what this thread is about which is tournaments.


Thing is. If the change is mainly only going to please people who already play a lot of tourneys, well, that is not going to increase or improve tourneys.

If.

You could give them one Box only tourney. If no one plays in it, bin it.


This is an age old problem with any sort of customer base. Do you chase down new customers while potentially alienating old ones?

This would be like Nabisco asking "How can we get people to eat more Oreos" and then listening to people who only eat free Oreos they find on the ground on how to improve their product because they're obviously an untapped market. So they retool Oreos to conform to the specs of these weirdo customers who don't even really like Oreos except in a narrow situational band involving 'free' or 'found'. What could go wrong?

When I worked in sales, one of most important lessons was divining the difference between someone who is enthusiastically dreaming and someone who is actually going to buy. I spent way too much time with the former to be good at sales. Don't tell me how you'd purchase something if it had X,Y,Z and when I get X,Y,Z in stock suddenly you can't find the cash you had before? Customers are self indulgent liars and dreamers.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 21:58 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:

When I worked in sales, one of most important lessons was divining the difference between someone who is enthusiastically dreaming and someone who is actually going to buy. I spent way too much time with the former to be good at sales. Don't tell me how you'd purchase something if it had X,Y,Z and when I get X,Y,Z in stock suddenly you can't find the cash you had before? Customers are self indulgent liars and dreamers.


Very true. But you have five tournaments for people who want mixed. But none for Box only.

If you had one Box only event, it would be the "Big" box only event. Wink

Admittedly, I probably wouldn't play. But I have played Box only Majors in the past. But never a Ranked Major.

That may be down to flawed perceptions. But perceptions can be important. Wink

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Secret League Grand Championship - Championship Swiss - 1st March
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 23:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Bazakastine wrote:
Here is the thing. If you were passionate about tourneys you would have played in more of them. The conversation is dominated by people with strong opposing views the don't conform to the change. Your argument is at least fairly logical even if I disagree with it. Catalyst on the other hand is arguing things that have little to do with this change.


Yes, it is true that I haven't played in many tourneys in the past year. The reason for that though is not lack of passion, just that I've been very busy in RL. For a start, I have a busy job, a 2-year-old kid and on top of that, we moved house back in July and there's been a load of DIY to do, which has sucked up a lot of my time. Believe me, I would have loved to have played in more Box tourneys last year, but RL got in the way.

The thing is, as I mentioned earlier, even if I haven't got time to actually enter many Box tourneys, the fact that they exist and the hope of entering future ones is(was) a major motivation for me to play in Blackbox. Sure, the team I'm building might get trashed and not make the tourney, or RL might just be too hectic for me to enter, but that doesn't stop the tourneys being a big motivation for me.

Also, another thing I want to mention is that there doesn't seem to have been much of a warning about this decision (at least that I saw). If Christer had made a post 6 months ago, saying that the Blackbox tourneys weren't attracting enough interest and he was thinking about merging them with the R ones, I might well have made more time for them, heck, even helped promote them, if I had known they were at risk. But, as far as I can see, this move has been sprung on me with very little warning, or consultation with the user base.

I can totally see the argument that there were too many tournaments in the schedule, and not enough players to support them. In which case, I can understand the need to reduce the number. I agree there were too many majors. But, this decision to merge all of the R and B tourneys seems unnecessary to me.

I have to say that also, what you and mrt1212 have said in the last couple of pages seems to be basically a variation on 'you don't play enough games/tournaments to have an opinion'. I thought that FUMBBL was supposed to be for everybody, not just those that have the time to play 15+ games per week, or 20+ tournaments a year? Some of us have demanding RLs and can't find as much time for FUMBBL as we would like. Does that mean we're not allowed to be as passionate then about BB, or about FUMBBL?

_________________
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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2018 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Bazakastine wrote:
Also pointing out Kfogeds high Elves is funny as if you look at his recent games before the tourney i see khemri twice i see some orcs i see Lizards I see humans twice (who match up well with elves. He has played orcs 130 times out of his 158 games. Humans 115. Chaos 157. Yes he has played Wood elves 236 and Dark Elves 245 but this is a guy who just plays elf ball and his 3rd most played team is chaos and he has over 1500 games. He isnt pimping his team for 1 tourney. This is what he plays. Now maybe I misunderstood that link but id like to again point out the mrt has a box high elf team with a TW 170 higher than the Nandorians. So box can make similar teams.


Actually, if you look back a couple of pages, I edited my earlier post to clarify that I wasn't pointing at the Nandorins as being a farmed team. From what I have seen, they seem to be a genuine team that takes on all comers, in a similar way to Arktoris' Charioteers. kfoged is a legendary HE coach and they did manage to win the XFL, although for some strange reason the final was forfeit. (there seemed to be a lot of forfeits in that tourney, btw..)

I don't think the same can be said about some of the other teams in that tourney though.

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 00:04 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:

I have to say that also, what you and mrt1212 have said in the last couple of pages seems to be basically a variation on 'you don't play enough games/tournaments to have an opinion'. I thought that FUMBBL was supposed to be for everybody, not just those that have the time to play 15+ games per week, or 20+ tournaments a year? Some of us have demanding RLs and can't find as much time for FUMBBL as we would like. Does that mean we're not allowed to be as passionate then about BB, or about FUMBBL?


Heh heh.

SLUMBBL Cup may suit you better then.
Longer deadlines. First two rounds 10 days.
Fewer ultra pimped teams.
Fewer rabidly, hardcore coaches.
Two chances to win.
100+ rosters to choose from.

You know it makes sense. Mr. Green


Edit: Could the FCME return. Wink

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Secret League Grand Championship - Championship Swiss - 1st March
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 01:16 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:

Yes, it is true that I haven't played in many tourneys in the past year. The reason for that though is not lack of passion, just that I've been very busy in RL. For a start, I have a busy job, a 2-year-old kid and on top of that, we moved house back in July and there's been a load of DIY to do, which has sucked up a lot of my time. Believe me, I would have loved to have played in more Box tourneys last year, but RL got in the way.

The thing is, as I mentioned earlier, even if I haven't got time to actually enter many Box tourneys, the fact that they exist and the hope of entering future ones is(was) a major motivation for me to play in Blackbox. Sure, the team I'm building might get trashed and not make the tourney, or RL might just be too hectic for me to enter, but that doesn't stop the tourneys being a big motivation for me.

Also, another thing I want to mention is that there doesn't seem to have been much of a warning about this decision (at least that I saw). If Christer had made a post 6 months ago, saying that the Blackbox tourneys weren't attracting enough interest and he was thinking about merging them with the R ones, I might well have made more time for them, heck, even helped promote them, if I had known they were at risk. But, as far as I can see, this move has been sprung on me with very little warning, or consultation with the user base.

I can totally see the argument that there were too many tournaments in the schedule, and not enough players to support them. In which case, I can understand the need to reduce the number. I agree there were too many majors. But, this decision to merge all of the R and B tourneys seems unnecessary to me.

I have to say that also, what you and mrt1212 have said in the last couple of pages seems to be basically a variation on 'you don't play enough games/tournaments to have an opinion'. I thought that FUMBBL was supposed to be for everybody, not just those that have the time to play 15+ games per week, or 20+ tournaments a year? Some of us have demanding RLs and can't find as much time for FUMBBL as we would like. Does that mean we're not allowed to be as passionate then about BB, or about FUMBBL?


You are ignorant of the current tourney meta and there is nothing that suggests otherwise and that this is merely a difference of opinions. Many of your (and other's) fears are either outdated or predicated on false ideas and notions or not even grounded in spurious evidence at all, rather subsisting on what you think feels right.

Should I have said that sooner? Does that make you any less defensive of your wants? No? Does this lessen the importance you see in stating your desires and wants? Okay then.

It is especially frustrating to be one of the tourney admins who was solely responsible for Black Box Brawls, for over a year during this transitory time to BB2016, have multiple people disregard anything I've observed over that time. After having to manually accept every applicant every tourney and seeing the same coaches and teams pop up again and again and then to watch you and others go off on hypothetical tangents about how things are...

I understand your opinion, I just don't find it all that compelling when weighing the potential benefits against the potential drawbacks. I don't find it compelling when everything leads back to "it doesn't feel special enough to me anymore". I don't find it compelling that you perceive a sense of loss from losing a thing you barely utilized when it existed in your ideal form to utilize.

Finally, in regard to your statement about FUMBBL being for everyone - I call this notion into question.

1. There are enough facets to FUMBBL that one can presumably find their spot. Open Play, Tournaments, Leagues and custom leagues, data mining/scripting, team logos, etc etc. It still is a hard sell to stick around. This doesn't mean that people will enjoy where they wind up either. If you only have time for Leagues and then you make a stink about how if everything was different you'd be able to enjoy Open Play and Tourneys, I'm going to give you the side eye and think "no, you're exactly where you should be with your framework of expectations and resources allowed to pursue them".

2. Major tournaments are a facet that is open to everyone but only has the basest sense of fairness.

If you're of the opinion that it isn't fair that some goober can plow through 20 games to get a team closer to what they believe is tourney ready while you can't, I put it back on you to explain how it's fair to tell someone generating a good amount of traffic and games within B or R in preparation for a tourney to not reap the reward from that. I think it is far worse a precedent to set (and one of the reasons I think Seasons as SOP for Open Play is terrible - it effectively neuters a major impetus for playing among those who play the most - building their teams up to spec. It puts a yoke on the possibilities in a way that seems contra to Open Play and takes a lot of the stochastic mechanisms with team attrition and puts them behind a few off season rolls. It's the equivalent of "you're too good a PC, a wizard has poisoned you and you die" in DnD).

3. So why not TW restricted Minor tournaments - well they're nice if folks participate. But coaches don't really participate in these by and large because it conflicts with other tourneys, the concept of a hard TW cap operates contra to one of the most compelling aspects of FUMBBL - sharpening your knife of a team over and over and over again. Also, the obsessive goobers like myself will still have a baked in team age advantage where we've simply rolled more skills over a longer period of time and tried our damnedest to keep the best parts going.

4. You get as much out of FUMBBL as you put in. BB is my main hobby much to my wife's chagrin. I've gotten a ton out of it as a game, a hobby, a social scene, and surprisingly as a the crucible of a Nuffle based philosophy. I hear ya, we can't all participate as much as we'd like and it sucks because there is so much we could participate in. But as I stated in point 2 - I find it much worse to tell coaches who do have the time and the dedication they can't use the things they put 30+ hours into.

Instead of feeling dispossessed at a disadvantage consider that the opportunity cost of obsessing over BB is instead time spent with your family, your friends, maybe your job which provides for both. Do you want to imagine your life playing BB 40-80 hours per week? Do you really want to trade in whatever else is going on in your life to extract a marginal advantage over someone in a tourney game where the prize is ego satisfaction?

Instead of lamenting your disadvantage in BB, you should be happy about having some semblance of Game/Life balance, even if it pains you at times. Lord knows I'll never get back every 15 minute instance in my life of orchestrating and advertising Black Box Brawls that you didn't show up for.
Bazakastine



Joined: Mar 21, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2018 - 01:40 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
Bazakastine wrote:
Also pointing out Kfogeds high Elves is funny as if you look at his recent games before the tourney i see khemri twice i see some orcs i see Lizards I see humans twice (who match up well with elves. He has played orcs 130 times out of his 158 games. Humans 115. Chaos 157. Yes he has played Wood elves 236 and Dark Elves 245 but this is a guy who just plays elf ball and his 3rd most played team is chaos and he has over 1500 games. He isnt pimping his team for 1 tourney. This is what he plays. Now maybe I misunderstood that link but id like to again point out the mrt has a box high elf team with a TW 170 higher than the Nandorians. So box can make similar teams.


Actually, if you look back a couple of pages, I edited my earlier post to clarify that I wasn't pointing at the Nandorins as being a farmed team. From what I have seen, they seem to be a genuine team that takes on all comers, in a similar way to Arktoris' Charioteers. kfoged is a legendary HE coach and they did manage to win the XFL, although for some strange reason the final was forfeit. (there seemed to be a lot of forfeits in that tourney, btw..)

I don't think the same can be said about some of the other teams in that tourney though.


I apologize for not realizing that the Nandorian thing is not what you meant. I am also sorry to come across that your points don't matter because you don't play enough. That is clearly unfair. The point I was trying to make is people who play more in tourneys and especially someone like mrt who has been the box tourney admin for awhile might have more of an idea of both the meta and why the change was made. As my excuse for being a bit unfair I would point out that I have a particularity bad case of strep throat and was prescribed cough syrup for it. I was purposely staying out of this thread before then so posting at all was a spontaneous and likely negative choice. All in all while I disagree with you I do respect the argument I just think the data does not support it.
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