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Poll
What to do with the Slann Blitzer?
No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price.
28%
 28%  [ 39 ]
Discount Blitzer Please.
24%
 24%  [ 33 ]
Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block.
12%
 12%  [ 17 ]
Stop Complaining.
35%
 35%  [ 48 ]
Total Votes : 137


Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 09:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:

Yeah. But... what skills will you be taking AND you are still unaware that I DO take Dodge and other RR skills in some limited places.


What skills would you like me to take? I will use whatever roster you design if you send me that information, otherwise I will inform myself based on your team builds and statements.

Why do you think I am unaware? You wrote that you 'make an exception on 1 catcher and might make an exception on 2 catchers if played at high enough TV'. You went on to explain that you take all the reroll skills on one catcher (dodge, sure hands, sure feet). As I said, I am reading what you write so it seems strange that you think I wouldn't get this.
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 09:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:


This is a good idea and a noble endeavour
Would it save time to play dodge-slann vs pro-slann?

Actually wouldn't the answer just come down to how much tackle the opponent has?
if its 11 guys with tackle then dodge is useless so pro would be better
if its 0 guys with tackle then dodge, we'd assume, is better

there's probably not a maths way to find out where the dividing line is, on how much opposing tackle makes the difference

if you test pro-slann vs dodge-slann and they have zero tackle between them, would dodge-slann be expected to win?


Honestly, there are many ways to save time in this endeavour. Someone with a good awareness of the game can probably just look at it and understand why one approach is stronger. bghandras said this earlier and I agree with him, I don't think an experiment is needed but when someone remains adamant in their belief I think the best thing is to encourage them to show it to reduce the back and forth. Bizarrely I am ending up doing the testing.

However, here I am not trying to be efficient with time but help convince someone who cannot see this OR learn something new myself and overcome my misunderstanding.

The level of tackle is as you say a key factor but only in combination with other skills. Dwarves are a good example. Nearly everyone has tackle and yet blodge is often still useful against them because the players that don't, are the ones with the movement and may be the only ones in range on certain plays. So one cannot isolate this one factor. I will take skills for each team on the basis that they are being well prepared for a general opponent rather than tailor them to beating slann.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 09:34 Reply with quote Back to top

How do you even out SKILL UPS? If 1 team rolls 3 +AG (that would even change my build most likely). Or if 1 gets 2 +ST or several DOUBLES. You could potentially refuse all non-normal skill rolls.

And how does anyone else see the results if the games are played on Table Top? How do we verify the level of competition? How can we know you are making choices consistent with maximizing the team you have... rather than playing by the memorization of old patterns learned in the game?
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 09:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Whatever distribution of stats and doubles you go with I will choose accordingly. Or if you prefer we can set a certain distribution. To demonstrate the point best perhaps we say 1100 cash and 8 normal skill and 2 doubles, and then 1100 cash +ST +AG +MA 16 normal skills and 4 doubles with no two of the stat increases going to the same player. Or we can have someone independent set a fair skill distribution.

Nobody else sees the results but fortunately I don't lie. I think the benefits in test environment in terms of being able to play myself and repeat against the same teams is worth the loss in transparency. I am only really interested in the truth. I hope you can see from the way I have approached our conversation that I am not trying to best you and so any fear of my fabricating results can be set aside.

I am the level of competition as I will play both sides, you can look at my record and decide whether you think I am skilled enough. If you don't think I am skilled enough then please say now so that I don't sink time into this.

We cannot know that I will play each position perfectly but I believe that I am reasonably adept at adapting to the skills available to me as demonstrated by my ability to do ok with each of the races in the box.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 10:04 Reply with quote Back to top

I would skill the players (assuming all normals) as follows:
LINEMAN - Wrestle/Tackle/StripBall/Pro
Wrestle always first, the rest can vary. Pro could sneak up as 2nd skill taken if there is already a Tackle/StripBall guy on the roster.
Blitzer1 - Block/MightyBlow/Frenzy/Tackle/Pro
Blitzer2 - Block/MightyBlow/Guard/Dodge/StandFirm
Blitzer3 - Block/MightyBlow/Guard/Dodge/StandFirm
Blitzer4 - Block/Dodge/Guard/SideStep/Tackle
Odds are a STAT will eliminate either of that.
CATCHER - Dodge/Block/SideStep/SureHands/Dauntless

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 10:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks bghandras, I'm happy to go with these skill selections for the team representing the inclusive use of dodge. Which makes me think that perhaps I should only do this at 1600 TV because as you illustrate at 1300 I may not really have got round to much chance to differentiate in terms of blodge.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 11:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, i think 1600 TW is where slann game plan starts to really open up.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 17:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Not sure how having ONE non blodger would test anything, but I like IT.

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 17:45 Reply with quote Back to top

One team will have access to multiple blodgers as per bghandras' skill selections. The team above is the blodge team.
The other team will have the skills as selected by Catalyst32 limited to one blodger in a catcher. If Catalyst32 doesn't have the time to make the selections I will infer them from what he has written and from his teams.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 17:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah the argument was about blitzers originally wasn't it, and this setup has 3 Blodge blitzers..

Edit - beaten by Harad.

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Last edited by garyt1 on May 22, 2018 - 18:51; edited 1 time in total
happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 18:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Since this is moving from theory into testing, I'll chime in here in case it's useful in setting this up.

I think some dodge is better on *any* race. It's just a skill that all teams should have some of.

Under the old rules I would start Krox and 2 blitzers (no catchers) and 3 RR, and then first skills on the blitzers would probably be block on the first and dodge on the second (he runs it). Once the first two have 2-3 skills each (probably block/tackle and blodge) then I would pick up another blitzer. Under the current rules, I would start Krox 3 catchers and 1 blitzer, because you can feed MVP to the blitzer and krox and skill the catchers normally.

Regardless, I would take dodge on most catchers (sometimes a sacking catcher doesn't survive to get dodge as I would go wrestle/tackle/dauntless or wrestle/strip first).

On blitzers, the dodge is more about keeping the blitzers *alive* than about actually dodging around with them. My game plan involves setting up key marks and forcing my opponent to risk something to score, or take risks to move the ball into scoring range. That means a blodge/SS blitzer is a really amazing marker. Sometimes Block/Tackle/SS is better, sometimes Block/Dodge/SS is better. I try to have one of each, minimum.

So in summary, I would take some dodge on EVERY Slann team, and the amount tends to vary. If I were lucky enough to roll 3 +ag blitzers then I would be taking dodge on each of them, for example. Wink

Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't, but good luck!

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 19:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
The team above is the blodge team.


I know. My point was that leaving a non blodging blitzer gives an escape clause. Ideally with more CAPS LOCK.

I suppose it would be time to clarify the competing hypotheses.

Meanwhile, I will continue my probability analysis.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 22, 2018 - 20:05 Reply with quote Back to top

For good measures, the hypothesis to test should be in that comment:

Catalyst32 wrote:
I don't think Blodge is worth having on Slann. Use Leap instead. At least that is my operating theory.
The Catchers need Block more than they need Dodge. And with AG4 and Pro their AG rolls will pan out often enough.

Don't take ANY of the Reroll skills. Take Pro instead and MAX OUT its uses.
Pro (when it works) works on Leaps, Jump Up to Block, Dauntless, Dodges, Pick Ups, Passes, Catches, Blocks, Frenzy Blocks, GFIs.
Avoiding Pass, Catch, Sure Feet, etc etc.. and Not having Dodge WASTES ALL OPPONENT TACKLE.

I DO make an exception on 1 Catcher (and might make it on 2 Catchers IF I played them at high enough TV and was using 4 Catchers).
I build 1 Catcher with ALL of the Reroll SKills... Dodge, Sure Hands, Sure Feet... etc etc.

Use
I DO NOT use Pro on the Blitzers but might at Legend if I ever get there.
You want either Side Step or Fend on your Blitzers... both have their advantages..


It is hard to know what BUILD this gives, and my logic BIAS makes it tough for me to interpret it.

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 07:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
Whatever distribution of stats and doubles you go with I will choose accordingly. Or if you prefer we can set a certain distribution. To demonstrate the point best perhaps we say 1100 cash and 8 normal skill and 2 doubles, and then 1100 cash +ST +AG +MA 16 normal skills and 4 doubles with no two of the stat increases going to the same player. Or we can have someone independent set a fair skill distribution.

Nobody else sees the results but fortunately I don't lie. I think the benefits in test environment in terms of being able to play myself and repeat against the same teams is worth the loss in transparency. I am only really interested in the truth. I hope you can see from the way I have approached our conversation that I am not trying to best you and so any fear of my fabricating results can be set aside.

I am the level of competition as I will play both sides, you can look at my record and decide whether you think I am skilled enough. If you don't think I am skilled enough then please say now so that I don't sink time into this.

We cannot know that I will play each position perfectly but I believe that I am reasonably adept at adapting to the skills available to me as demonstrated by my ability to do ok with each of the races in the box.



Well... you ARE doing it for YOU so play it how you want I guess. But it would be better if what you are doing is seen by others. Other than proving it to YOU I don't see what you prove by doing it this way. But I do appreciate your idea do at least attempt it.

How about NO DOUBLES and NO STAT UPS? At least them it would be a bit more scientific.
Obviously if 1 team was loaded with STATS and DOUBLES it would be unfair if the other team had almost none.
That does ruin some of my plans that bring my Linemen into the strategy in various ways. But it would take tons more to explain every one of those choices.


Blitzer 1st 4 skills Mighty Blow, Guard, Block, Tackle
1st - Block, Mighty Blow, Guard, Tackle
2nd - Block, Tackle, Mighty Blow, Guard
3rd - Block, Guard, Mighty Blow, Tackle
4th - Block, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Guard

1st Catcher
Dodge, Sure Hands, Block, Sure Feet, Fend
2nd Catcher
Wrestle, Pro, Dauntless, Jump Up, Sprint

KROX Guard (that is all I ever plan on giving him)
If he skills past that then Stand Firm I guess.

LineFrogs
Wrestle, Pro, Strip Ball, Fend
Wrestle, Pro, Fend, Strip Ball
Wrestle, Tackle, Pro, Fend
Wrestle, Tackle, Fend, Pro
Dirty Player, Wrestle
Dirty Player, Wrestle
Block, Sure Hands, Fend
Block, Tackle, Pro, Fend
Block, Pro, Fend, Tackle

That is basic enough. I ultimately want 1 more Block than Wrestle on the Pitch. So you skill MOST Linefrogs with Wrestle but some most get Block until you replace them with Blitzers (who ALL get Block).


The RR Skill Catcher is the main guy for picking up the Ball on Defense and either redistributing it or SCORING ASAP.
The Lineman with Sure Hands picks it up DEEP on Offense and Runs it... the RR SKill Catcher is deployed forward for picking up the ball on a SHORT Kick or to receive the ball from the Runner/Lineman...
Runner/Linemam carrys if you need to grind it in a cage (usually).

RRSkill Catcher trys to stay clear of TZs (no touch) on Defense BUT if it is a turn where you re not going to get a good shot on the ball USE him to move up for assists. But in general he needs to stay protected.

Use Jump Up on Blitzers to Block from Prone as much as possible unless of course that is not a smart play at the moment.
Use Fend spam to help slow opponent advance and to help ou reposition.

Remember that GFI is the best odds dice roll for your players with Pro (except the Catcher ofc).
If you MUST Dodge Away with ST3 players consider using Leap instead and Leap into squares where IF the dice should fail that you would still be able to plug a hole in your positioning (offense or defense).

idk... what else?
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 09:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Thank you. But hang on a moment. If you won't accept this as evidence then the point is greatly diminished.
Whilst I am always open minded and interested in possible improvements I am doing this because 1) you seemed put out that others didn't accept your theory and 2) when I set out how you could get that theory accepted you said you were too busy. So I am doing this primarily for you.
As I have already stated, from a personal point of view, I agree with bghandras when he said we don't need an experiment to have a good judgement of the theory because those people with enough knowledge and experience can evaluate it fairly anyway.
So will you accept this as evidence or not?
Thank you for all the other guidance, very helpful.
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