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Poll
Do You Play In The Blackbox Tournament?
Yes, I've finished my 200 games.
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
Yes, I'm on my way to finishing the 200 games.
17%
 17%  [ 11 ]
Yes, but I won't be finishing the 200 games.
51%
 51%  [ 33 ]
No, I've never joined.
26%
 26%  [ 17 ]
Total Votes : 64


Mattius



Joined: Sep 03, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2018 - 00:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
Before conspiracy theories go more wild than they have already, let me chime in on why I implemented this...

First of all, I have no reason to use an alias to suggest ideas. If I want something to be done on the site, I'll do it without needing to hide behind an anonymous account.

When Jake posted about this, a lot of people seemed to think it was a cool idea. Yes, he was offering $100 or whatever to the winner (which at this point seems unbelievably unlikely to happen at this point), but the core idea is pretty good and a lot of people showed interest in this and were already starting to make squads using the forum.

From my perspective, a big showing of interest combined with a relatively simple implementation and me having some spare time makes it pretty much a no-brainer for me to add direct support for. There's now 74 days remaining for this thing and interest is still there. That's a solid foundation for something worth putting more time into, so I would be more than happy to push this into another season and take input on what could be done to keep things interesting.

Now, I don't see myself allowing old teams join into a new round of this thing just as-is. The first few matches are especially tough in this environment and is part of the challenge, and having 40+ game old teams allowed to participate doesn't seem fair. Maybe this could work if the season rule was introduced?

I wouldn't mind having a second season being exactly the same as the first one. You make a new squad, sign up and get going. Same number of teams, same number of games, same time period. At the same time, I realize this is a huge undertaking for a lot of people, and simply excludes them from being part of it. Maybe there should be a shorter version of it (6 months? 3 months?).. Maybe there could be a three team version? There are all sorts of variations possible, even introducing the ability to retire and replace a team from your squad..

I haven't participated in this trophy, nor have I put in much of an effort into keeping track of it. From my perspective, it's mostly been a coach-initiated effort that I added some code for to help you guys track. It's been wildly successful from a high level perspective and I see no reason to continue exploring the format once this season has ended.


Thanks for helping to set this up!

I think reducing the number of games needed for completion, or reducing the number of teams, maybe down to 4 would be worth considering. As much as I've enjoyed it, getting to 200 games next season will be unlikely given real life.

Regarding tier rankings, i think it works fine.

For older teams, it would be interesting to just have a larger meta league where all BB teams are part of as a default? Re set each 6 months and gives a load of stats and winners for most points, racial winners, win/loss ratio, Casualties, TDs etc. This would be a big ask, but ultimately what I think would bring more meaning and popularity to the box.

I suspect a lot of us love this game and site (potentially unknowingly) because we love the stats. Hence if you know you aren't likely to win most points, perhaps you can shoot for most TDs, fouls, crowd surfs, SPPs, legends etc Smile
Rags



Joined: Nov 09, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2018 - 00:44 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
Rags wrote:
Again this is all uninformed, as haven't read new DZ, so if it's silly, my apologies and thanks for your patience/

All teams in Blackbox and Ranked follow the same set of rules. Various new rules have been implemented on FUMBBL. Not sure where the thread is on that..


OK I get it now. Since Trophy teams are in with rest of box,and can play in tourneys (great way to get a few trophy matches in), season rules would be out of sync.

Sorry slow on uptake, thanks for help.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2018 - 14:15
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

GAZZATROT wrote:
Christer wrote:


It's been wildly successful from a high level perspective and I see no reason to continue exploring the format once this season has ended.


I presume there was a typo at the end there Christer?

As it reads you aren't interested in continuing it.


Yes, that was a typo.
Strider84



Joined: Jun 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2018 - 15:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I've played 70 matches so far and think its great(as is my win rate Smile)

Old teams: Absolutely not. Starting with a optimized team would not be fair to new teams. To show off old teams there are tourneys.


100 games would be better than 200. Maybe give the opportunity to start a second run once the first one is completed.
While i do like the cyanide ranking iit only works because the matchups are bases on win rates.

From the tiers i think the only change that might make sense is to rather group the races into types bash, agility, hybrid, fun and make everyone chose one of each type. But keeping the current races helps is also fine. I do think high and pro elves are too good to be tier 2 though, as after 10 games all elf teams start to become similar. But khemri or humans you keep the ag3/2 without getting some real bash on wo claw or piling on.

Unfortunately i will have s hard time to reach 200 as i have some leagues and i started too late.

Replace a team is ok but then maybe all games played will be counted as losses?

Team management is a part of the trophy as in league play.

Cheers,

Strider
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2018 - 16:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I think you should get one free reset per season incase all your saurus get killed or something
So you'd delete that team and add a new one

Probably keep the team's record, so you play 12 games with first team then it gets killed, so your replacement has only to play 28 games - if you don't keep the record it would be a way for people to attempt to improve their score by wiping their worst team from the squad

Reset should be 1 team of the same race?
I can see merits either way. Say you aren't enjoying one race you could wipe it and change to something else, of the same tier
fxiii



Joined: Oct 30, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2018 - 18:08 Reply with quote Back to top

link to my first UW game this year, didn't drop the team and rebuilding was a cool challenge (well, not easy to find the second game though!) https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3943716

only ballz matters boyzzzzzz Wink
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2018 - 18:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I think the potential rebuild is part of the challenge so I'm not enthused about restarts and switching teams. It's a bit endurance as you have to stick with the team for the whole tournament (or not finish and lose points). Different builds might be needed for it, as an apothecary to start can save you a lot of hassle.

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Seany18



Joined: Mar 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2018 - 23:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I intended to participate in this but never did.
Love the idea of diversifying races and challenging people to not just be the best with 2000tv chorfs but to be the best with 5 different races of different abilities.

I kind of messed up my initial selection which made me not want to play and agree with people that some kind of reset would be nice but I think you should "reset" your whole squad of 5.

Another idea is to have an end of season playoff or something that will give people a goal to play for. Maybe involving a swiss format where the participants play 1 game with each of their teams? In reality this might be problematic to find a good format.

Whilst the 200 games over the year is good and incentives people seeing out the 40 games with some Tier 2 and 3 teams I think a shorter format would increase interest.
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2018 - 16:51 Reply with quote Back to top

If you want to have very balanced costs you can always equate the cost to the the team's win percentage in blackbox:

Lizardmen 0.5910
Amazon 0.5641
Necromantic 0.5635
Undead 0.5544

and so on.

No reason to categorize them into tiers.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2018 - 16:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Tricktickler wrote:
If you want to have very balanced costs you can always equate the cost to the the team's win percentage in blackbox:

Lizardmen 0.5910
Amazon 0.5641
Necromantic 0.5635
Undead 0.5544

and so on.

No reason to categorize them into tiers.


This is too elegant.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2018 - 21:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Needs to be filtered by winrate of each team's first 40 games tho
I did those stats elsewhere

Total budget 250%?
Strider84



Joined: Jun 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2018 - 22:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Thats a very nice idea!
happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2018 - 23:37 Reply with quote Back to top

I like filtering by winrate and other such ideas. There are lots of interesting ways it could be done. A massive live draft where we all go around and pick races via some system would also be a blast. But these all have various layers of added complexity.

I've been thinking about how to angle for promoting the lesser chosen options in future seasons, and what about something like this:

1) Mostly keep it exactly the same, as it does work.

2) Remove the tiers, but set all races at the *current* tier point cost.

3) Each new season, look back at which races completed 40 games (or made it past 30 or whatever threshold), and which races completed fewest games.

4) Add .2 points to the cost of each of the top third most played races, and subtract .2 from the cost of each of the bottom third (could mean races go negative).

Then if certain races (eg High Elves and Elven Union) get picked a lot, they are going to increase in cost for the next season. If they still get picked for season 2 they will go up in cost again for season 3. Other races (Pact, for example) are going to get cheaper until they start getting played more. Then we'll reach a balance over time and have a bit of ebb and flow. The different point values will also mean you will be faced with new team creation choices each season, which is another bonus, as there will never be "one or two best team combos".

***

As a separate idea, rather than allow a "restart" procedure, perhaps each participant in the event could gain a special one-use item (that could sit on their home page like potions). Use it after a game (only on BT teams that season) to gain a one-time infusion of cash for that team equal to the base cost of all killed or permanently injured players in that match. Basically, one get out of jail free card for the really horrible matches where you end up with half a team left, especially early on. Perhaps worth 1 win at the end if you don't use it? Wink

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 20, 2018 - 00:36 Reply with quote Back to top

If a main goal is to increase diversity & games played, then splitting by race type, eg bash/dash/hybrid/fun is probably the best way.

That may not be the most 'competitive' way to do but relatively few people have a realistic chance of winning. More people will play for the achievement or because it makes the racial balance better.

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Cyrus-Havoc



Joined: Sep 15, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 21, 2018 - 14:58 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
If a main goal is to increase diversity & games played, then splitting by race type, eg bash/dash/hybrid/fun is probably the best way.

That may not be the most 'competitive' way to do but relatively few people have a realistic chance of winning. More people will play for the achievement or because it makes the racial balance better.


I like this idea, have 4 teams 1 from each group but give the option to take more than one from the Fun group.

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