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Poll
If it were up to you, Fumbbl R and B would...
Add all 3
22%
 22%  [ 34 ]
Add none
37%
 37%  [ 57 ]
Add just Khorne
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Add just Bretons
5%
 5%  [ 8 ]
Add just Simyin
1%
 1%  [ 3 ]
Add all BUT Khorne
3%
 3%  [ 5 ]
Add all BUT Bretons
1%
 1%  [ 2 ]
Add all BUT Simyin
27%
 27%  [ 42 ]
Total Votes : 151


ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 12:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Christy wrote:

Sure but could see a redone Bret or Khorne roster fitting the fluff. That will never be true for Simyin. No pets allowed for me.


What would be the point in voting for a "redone" bret or khorne roster when we're supposedly voting based on the existing rosters adopted by the NAF and cyanide? (note: cyanide have seemingly abandoned their own Khorne roster as it doesn't currently appear in bb2 and they don't seem to be planning more expansions now).

To end up having a different roster to both of the above would just lead to even more disparity from rulesets and communities playing BB - not so much even a "why can't i use brets?" (because they're not official), but a "why are your brets different?" (which is already the case in secret league, but it's quite clear they are a separate entity from the official races).

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Irgy



Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 12:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Balle2000 wrote:
morehouse wrote:
Looks like the general opinion of the community is yes on Khorne and Bretons, no on Simyin.

Correction: it looks like the general opinion of Fumbbl forum readers is Add None.


As of the current results, Add None is the biggest single response, but that's in part because Simyin is splitting the "yes" vote on Khorne and Bretons. If you break up the votes per race you get:

A resounding no to Simyin (23-64)
A tentative no to Khorne (41-46)
A tentative yes to Bretton (46-41)
Domfluff



Joined: Dec 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 12:46 Reply with quote Back to top

I abstained from the NAF vote to add Brets and Khorne. My reasoning behind that wasn't that the rosters were overpowered, boring, odd or any other qualitative measure, but that the arguments for and against adding them were pretty much all terrible.

The best argument line I've heard (potentially) against them is:

"With the assumption that adding 100 teams would be too many, it follows that there is limited capital to add new teams to Blood Bowl. Are the Bret and Khorne rosters offer enough to qualify here?"

Personally, I quite like the Khorne roster, in my limited experience of playing against them. They're a tier 2 team which offers something you can't get with other teams - which puts them in the same bracket as Slann, Vampires, Underworld, etc. That makes for interesting games with unique problems to solve - which (I think) is what you want from additional teams, and especially from tier two teams.

Brets I could go either way on. With the addition of Agility access they are now a lower tier one team, and not a massively interesting one. They're fine, but I don't think they add anything particularly special to the game. Fend spam is interesting though.

I have never played with or against Simyin, but the roster certainly does something different. Grab and Extra Arms spam changes the way the game plays, and you end up with the right kind of tier 2 (presumably) team.

So, "should these rosters be added to R and B on Fumbbl?". As with the NAF vote, many of the arguments have contradictions - Fumbbl has long supported Slann, Underworld and Pact, none of which were legal in GW published rules until very recently. Clearly they had the providence of the BBRC behind them, but claiming that Fumbbl should stick to GW rules means having to explain why these teams were okay.

Blood Bowl has different levels of organised play. BB2 is a different format to Fumbbl, which is a different format to a NAF tournament, which is distinct from official GW tournaments. None of them can take precedence really - even in tabletop tournament games, the number of NAF-legal games (therefore Khorne, Brets and Slann) vastly outnumber the GW-legal ones, so the rules GW put out are ultimately secondary to the ruleset which the NAF adapts and adopts.

Cyanide will do their own thing. "Because it works this way in BB2" is not reason enough for Fumbbl or anything else to adopt BB2's systems and rules changes.

Should they be added to Fumbbl? Shrug. I abstained from the NAF vote, but wouldn't have been unhappy with either outcome. Now that they are NAF-legal, I suspect there's now a stronger argument for making them Fumbbl-legal in R and B.
Domfluff



Joined: Dec 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 12:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Also, it's worth noting that Blood Bowl forum users have been historically conservative. If you look back at posts around any and all major changes, you'll see people complaining about how this change is the end of the world, and the game will be ruined forever.

The Slann roster was overpowered, LRB4 was destroying the game, LRB5 destroyed the game even harder - I've even seen a couple of posts where people were lobbying for removing all new races from that game (i.e., Necro, Khemri, etc.) and "finally getting this to be a decent game".
Christy



Joined: Jul 19, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 14:20 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Christy wrote:

Sure but could see a redone Bret or Khorne roster fitting the fluff. That will never be true for Simyin. No pets allowed for me.


What would be the point in voting for a "redone" bret or khorne roster when we're supposedly voting based on the existing rosters adopted by the NAF and cyanide? (note: cyanide have seemingly abandoned their own Khorne roster as it doesn't currently appear in bb2 and they don't seem to be planning more expansions now).

To end up having a different roster to both of the above would just lead to even more disparity from rulesets and communities playing BB - not so much even a "why can't i use brets?" (because they're not official), but a "why are your brets different?" (which is already the case in secret league, but it's quite clear they are a separate entity from the official races).


I more meant they could be changed by GW so any change would be centralised (or at least the official version in case Cyanide continue with their version).

Having said that I am regretting my vote and would prefer to wait and see on those. Even if we got word from GW that they are being worked on then I would be happy to add the current ones as placeholders. Especially as I feel the Khorne one is close (though less likely if it is not in BB2).

Heck even if a roster came along that got enough acceptance like the Slann (and cyanide ditch their version like the Khorne).

Neither route is open for me for the Simyin.
fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 16:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I like the idea of adding new rosters, but wouldn't add these rosters. I'd prefer a redesign where the available skills could support good new rosters that are fluff-friendly. Right now the skill limitations make this impossible.

Big C is right to adhere as much as possible to an official set of rules. The problem is that GW doesn't seem to particularly care about producing a coherent official set of rules.
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 16:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Brets and Khorn are both as official as Slann. All 3 races are NAF and Cyanide legal while never appearing in any official rule sets.

I have a copy of the Blood Bowl Almanac it lists official teams as Human, Orc, Skaven, Nurgle, Dwarf, Elven Union, High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Goblin, Chaos Renegades, and Underworld Denizens as official races. At the end of the book it also says "Blood Bowl has a long and glorious history going back three decades and in that time all manner of teams have had their time on the pitch. Some have gone the way of the Old Ones and may or may not ever return, but others have proved firm favourites (sic) and become a permanent part of the game. Prior to the 2016 edition of Blood Bowl, the previous rules (the 'Blood Bowl Competition Rules Pack' published in 2010) contained a formidable twenty-one teams, many of which have been updated for the new edition of the game.

The remainder of the established Blood Bowl teams are to be updated in the future editions of the Death Zone series, but in the meantime the 2010 versions of their rosters are still valid and should continue to be used until such time as a new roster is published. The pages that follow allow coaches to use these teams, but keep in mind that these rosters may be devolved further by the time they receive the official stamp of officialdom in future editions of Death Zone. Rest assured though, no players will ever be removed from a roster, so existing' (sic) collections of miniatures will remain valid."

The section then goes on to list the rosters for: Amazon, Chaos Dwarf, Chaos Chosen, Halfling, Khemri, Lizardmen, Norse, Necromantic Horror, Shambling Undead, Ogre, and Vampire.

We already have the updated names for these teams/players in. The Blood Bowl 2016 star players are also listed as being available to several of these teams notably; Helmut Wulf (Amazon, Chaos Renegades, Human, Lizardmen, Norse , Vampire) [changed from CRP by allowing Renegades to take him], Karla Von Kill (Amazon, Hafling, Human, Norse) [Formerly Zara, she loses availability to Dwarf, High Elf, and Wood elf teams], Morg 'n' Thorg ("Any except Khemri, Necromatic, and Undead). Roxanna Darknail (Amazon, Dark Elf), Scrappa Sorehead (Goblin, Ogre, Orc) and Willow Rosebark (Amazon, Hafling, Wood Elf).

So, this explicitly states that all CRP teams are explicitly legal for BB2016 rules (we have already updated the names of the teams and players for all of these teams). And it makes Slann, Brets, and Khorn unofficial "NAF Official" teams just like how Slann, Chaos Pact, and Underworld were not CRP official but were "NAF Official". So I see Slann, Brets, and Khorn all on the same level, which is above Simyan, but below all the other rosters. Though there is an argument to be made that Slann should be grandfathered.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 16:49 Reply with quote Back to top

ph0enyx13 wrote:
Brets and Khorn are both as official as Slann. All 3 races are NAF and Cyanide legal while never appearing in any official rule sets.



Slann existed in 2nd ed. Stars handbook is where you'll find them.

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ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 16:49 Reply with quote Back to top

datom wrote:
It's also worth saying that anything added that is not GW official leaves us a hostage to fortune. Look at the changes to Pact/new Goblin star players - changes can take several years to filter through into the FUMBBL environment for good reason.

GW seem committed to retaining comparable 'base' rosters for the most part with CRP, but can't see them having that same commitment to rosters that aren't theirs. So if a new Khorne roster comes out in Death Zone season 3, do we play on with the old one for a couple of years, then delete all existing teams if they are not suitable compatible? Seems like it could be messy.



This is a good point, GW says in death zone before the teams of legend part that while the rosters may be changed for the remaining squads, no player shall be removed in bb2016 (to keep all mini's valid). So we shouldn't ever see any GW official teams become completely invalid and need to be retired on here as all the core positional will remain with just tweaks to cost, skills, and access. I would assume by their wording that players numbers on each of the teams remains the same though
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 17:48 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
ph0enyx13 wrote:
Brets and Khorn are both as official as Slann. All 3 races are NAF and Cyanide legal while never appearing in any official rule sets.



Slann existed in 2nd ed. Stars handbook is where you'll find them.


Yea, but weren't Brets also in 1st edition?
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 17:53 Reply with quote Back to top

ph0enyx13 wrote:
ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
ph0enyx13 wrote:
Brets and Khorn are both as official as Slann. All 3 races are NAF and Cyanide legal while never appearing in any official rule sets.



Slann existed in 2nd ed. Stars handbook is where you'll find them.


Yea, but weren't Brets also in 1st edition?


yes and no.

There was a knights team, though they were called Albion, they were made up of 6 knights and the rest peseants.

They were in many ways a precursor for Bretonnia.

Bretonnia were official in 4th edition gold rule set, but that only stayed official for about a month before GW changed their mind.

that being said the current bret roster that is being used in cyanides version of the game is horrible. It's really cookie cutter, too powerful at low TV and fluff wise doesn't really add up.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2018 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

I voted no. Purity of essence. Peace on Earth.
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2018 - 01:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Irgy wrote:
As of the current results

You left out my main point though. A forum poll will never show us any sort of Fumbbl consensus. Its merely gauging a selection of the recent forum readers (that bothered clicking said topic). And there's no guarantee they even vote.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2018 - 12:05 Reply with quote Back to top

fidius wrote:
I like the idea of adding new rosters, but wouldn't add these rosters. I'd prefer a redesign where the available skills could support good new rosters that are fluff-friendly. Right now the skill limitations make this impossible.


+1

I'd certainly be ok with Khorne and Bretonnian being added to the official lists.......or go somewhere towards what the NAF have done, and 'optional official lists'. However not these. My problems with them are:

1. How they are designed.
2. Cyanide is not a good judge of what is needed.
3. Problems with fluff/Eroding of law.

Simyin
This is probably the easiest one to judge of the 3. FUMBBL is one of the few places where this list would be considered for being added to the main rosters due to the Chance/Christer connection.

However it wasn't added to the main divisions when the list was added to FUMBBL, so I doubt there's much chance now.

The biggest problem with this list is the fluff. It's pretty weak IMO and shows a lack of knowledge of the world it's trying to portray. Does planet of the apes style design really fit a warhammer world?

One of the benefits of picking a new race that hasn't been described before however is that you have a total free go at skills. Which is what they did there. Even then is the roster popular? Not really.

Khorne
Khorne is the god of murder. With Chaotic rosters being considered (arguably) the biggest problem at the time due to CPOMB bringing in the god of murder's roster is such a dumb dumb idea. And this shows Cyanide's lack of awareness when concerning the state of the game.

It's a major reason why I think any of their rosters shouldn't be legal. The second point about this roster is the special rules. This roster really needs special rules/skills. Otherwise there's no point in adding them.

When we go Nurgle we go special skills. Daemons of 4th ed got a special neg trait. However when this roster was designed one of the design notes was 'no special rules'. Why add a roster of this nature if you aren't going to do the job to the full potential?

From start to finish of the design there were compromises. This is evident in the finished product; something that could have been original, but ends up in my opinion making a mockery of what it's trying to portray.

The frenzy theme is neat though, and most definitely adds something in game play.

Bretonnian
Very difficult to not make this a ****ing plasmoid paragraph, but it will probably be that way....I like the guy; and his enthusiasm, promotion and work is a great asset to the hobby.

However.......(I'm paraphrasing here) he once said something along the lines of 'Every new roster should add something new' and I feel this is what this roster is.......bolted on new stuff, that doesn't really have relevance to what it is trying to portray.

I feel when 3rd edition was originally designed there was a lot more care in what positionals and races were trying to portray. I believe this was a for a reason. Without this foundation you start to lose the believability of this imaginary universe. And I cannot highlight enough how important this is to games (like this) built on fluff.

I feel that the designers of this roster do not understand this. I feel that the emphasis on this part has been lost to some extent and is eroding away. So fundamentally I am anti the design theory behind this roster.

On top of this the roster has had a lot of changes that.........have steadily made it worse from a fluff stand point. I think the original was a lot better, before others starting messing around with it.

You also have to ask if Plasmoid's work wasn't so easy to find on the net, would Cyanide have taken an interest? Were they aware of Plasmoid's 'marmite' type reputation?
Again for me this just highlights Cyanide's ignorance of all things BB.

So to conclude:
Simyin - not for me
Khorne - I don't think the theme is workable (or there would be better chaos ideas)
Bretonnian - not with a rework that is more sympathetic to race portrayal.

However just like the NAF as the playerbase changes, newer players are less aware of the erosion I feel is happening. I think it will be inevitable that the majority will want Khorne and Brets added in the future.
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2018 - 14:02 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
I'd certainly be ok with Khorne and Bretonnian being added to the official lists.

-1

Are you okay, mouse? Smile They both need from-scratch makeovers.
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