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Poll
Is the Chaos Dwarf Minotaur worth it?
Yes he is!
25%
 25%  [ 23 ]
No. He is a @#$%@#$ Minotard.
60%
 60%  [ 56 ]
Emphasy is cool.
14%
 14%  [ 13 ]
Total Votes : 92


harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 19, 2018 - 21:27 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem I see is that all big guys are used in the same way. I.e a semi mobile wall that can hurt you.

The minotaur, snow troll and rat ogre were not designed this way. They were designed to be an impact player. The problem with that is; are they more effective this way or as the wall? Wild animal means they keep their tackle zones no matter what. However base price and lower av means they can never be as effective doing the wall job as a wall big guy.

So maybe there best role is middling between an impact and wall player. A player that starts mobile and hits the enemy line in the desired place to become a wall.

Here though lies another problem. You are relying on him with at least one blitz. High end blood bowl has taught us 'dont take unnecessary risks' and a mino is a massive risk. Especially when you have fantastic blitzers. Yet here CDs do differ slightly. Chaos has horn skilled beastmen. Norse and skaven both have actual blitzers (pact with a mino is a loony roster). CDs don't have an out of the box blitzer. So....if any roster could make the mino work maybe it's CDs. They have the av to not have to rely so much on a big guy's wall aspect too.

I think you have to adapt your play to suit him and that's probably not a good thing. However if he suits your style then I can see a place for a cattle giganticus.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 19, 2018 - 22:07 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
The problem I see is that all big guys are used in the same way. I.e a semi mobile wall that can hurt you.

The minotaur, snow troll and rat ogre were not designed this way. They were designed to be an impact player. The problem with that is; are they more effective this way or as the wall? Wild animal means they keep their tackle zones no matter what. However base price and lower av means they can never be as effective doing the wall job as a wall big guy.

So maybe there best role is middling between an impact and wall player. A player that starts mobile and hits the enemy line in the desired place to become a wall.

Here though lies another problem. You are relying on him with at least one blitz. High end blood bowl has taught us 'dont take unnecessary risks' and a mino is a massive risk. Especially when you have fantastic blitzers. Yet here CDs do differ slightly. Chaos has horn skilled beastmen. Norse and skaven both have actual blitzers (pact with a mino is a loony roster). CDs don't have an out of the box blitzer. So....if any roster could make the mino work maybe it's CDs. They have the av to not have to rely so much on a big guy's wall aspect too.

I think you have to adapt your play to suit him and that's probably not a good thing. However if he suits your style then I can see a place for a cattle giganticus.


I think you're on to something but I take a different tack.

People use the mino in wrong ways for the team even if its the way to maximize his individual value. And the fear of not maximizing on pitch value makes it hard to justify taking one at all.

Yes, he has issues. To me the worst thing that can happen to a Mino is getting knocked down. That's true of Rat Ogres and Snow Trolls as well. Wild Animal is a pain.

I think with Chaos Dwarves though, any knockdown is bad for them. Any. It seems kind weird to think that knockdowns are any worse for one team rather than another and especially Chaos Dwarves, but you simply can't let your team get out of position with them, even with the bulls having some juice to move around. I know I say they're a really good roster with the deficiencies of dwarves mitigated to some degree but you still can't afford to be super loose and let your players get into bad spots.

So how does the Mino on the Cdork roster fit in, as I see it?

Roadblock and tying up other players with blocker guard support. Especially against natural ST3 teams. If the play moves away from him, good! Then you should have a better idea of what needs to be covered and done. The play moves towards him, good - it takes 3 assists with ST3 to get a 2d6 which is not something most coaches want to be engaging in if it gets them guard locked by the blockers.

I think the let down is his value in that role is when teams start having ST4 players and guard. You put two ST4 players with guard on him (or that just naturally happens in the course of the game), he loses most of his possible advantages. He needs assists to get out of that situation he can more easily be knocked down if he just stands there without much of any effort from the coach with the ST4 and guard. AV8 is fine for players that aren't clocking in at 150 TV with no skills.

I know this is a stretch but if he is causing dilemma after dilemma for you in how you play your game then that's bad. I had that issue with Coca Loca when they were up around 3000 TV - I had too many options I felt the need to use because I merely had them available. So this goes back to the question of why take a player with all these faults if you don't have to and it takes you out of playing your best game and frankly, it's because I find even less uses for hobgoblins in the big picture.

I will always take him on Cdorks out of spite and that's why I always name them "Wrong"
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2018 - 00:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Emphasy is cool, flying minos are cooler.

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sjoh1141



Joined: Dec 08, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2018 - 00:29 Reply with quote Back to top

I like the brute force of a minotaur, the only way I've ever used him is to hit things hard and often... especially since blocking or blitzing reduced the possibility of a wild animal role.

The only issue is when something else needs to make the blitz.

It's a simple view but effective enough.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2018 - 00:32 Reply with quote Back to top

sjoh1141 wrote:
I like the brute force of a minotaur, the only way I've ever used him is to hit things hard and often... especially since blocking or blitzing reduced the possibility of a wild animal role.

The only issue is when something else needs to make the blitz.

It's a simple view but effective enough.


You could make a case for enhancing his blocking value if you have a 2nd frenzy player on the roster who can push stuff into his TZs that he then takes over on a subsequent block. The root issue though is getting out of position and into trouble in doing that.
Zirgantz



Joined: May 30, 2017

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2018 - 01:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I like minotaurs on CD teams. It really gains me time when deciding who to foul.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2018 - 18:01 Reply with quote Back to top

My CD Minotaur has Guard, so he can be useful passively as long as he's standing.
I don't blitz with him most of times, instead I push to him opponent players and I always try to 3d-block to lower the risks (and since CDs have many Guards it's quite easy).
That said, in some situations the threat of blitzing and surfing is nice to have and I might try it if the potential reward is great.

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2018 - 18:49 Reply with quote Back to top

rookie minotaur...probably not worth it. minotaur with turnover reducing skill (jugs/block) worth it, and it gets better from there.

the claw ones and the jug/tentacles/sf ones are a nightmare to go against.

_________________
Hail to Frik! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Raiders of the Lost Tomb
Stonetroll



Joined: Jun 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2018 - 23:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Theres always the 1% chance he will be the next Myyrä Smile
delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 02:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I was reading a guide recently.
"It's not the amount of power you have, it's the amount of perceived power. "
I think most mino's are about power, not perceived power. I.e. they block up, jugs, etc. maybe being a big guy to block other big guys.

You have a massive player that with break tackle becomes an awesome threat. OR you have Bulls that can also be an awesome threat without wild animal.

Mino's are one of the cool things about Blood Bowl.
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 03:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Deathroller
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 05:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I love the deathroller, but everytime I have one on my team, I lose every game. Not sure why, but I never win with it.

_________________
Hail to Frik! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Raiders of the Lost Tomb
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 06:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
I love the deathroller, but everytime I have one on my team, I lose every game. Not sure why, but I never win with it.


What TV are you playing them at?
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 06:34 Reply with quote Back to top

typically 2250TV

_________________
Hail to Frik! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Raiders of the Lost Tomb
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 06:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
typically 2250TV


Pay them more in beer then.
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