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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 01:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Mattius wrote:
I'd recommend people here use reddit more and recommend fumbbl in a positive way there, it's a good start.


Heh, heh. Old Fumbbl fogies still using forums. Wink

Mattius wrote:

I wont play Cyanide until they remove or update PO. It's an inferior product right now.

I'd be interested to know if Cyanide is actually growing? Does anyone have any stats on this? If they can't be bothered to update the rule set then how long can it last?


COL will still stink even if they nerf CPOMB. CCL resets teams so CPOMB is less of an issue. They seem to be OK with CPOMB in leagues.

Not changing ruleset does not look like a major issue.

Mattius wrote:

On the side of money, it'd be interesting to know how much it would cost to get things like a web app in place?


It would cost a lot.

Christer is working on it. He has asked for help.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 03:14 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Christer is working on it. He has asked for help.


Wow, I hadn't seen that. Does this mean the source code for the ffb client is now available? If so, I think it's a good move if it will help to bring in new/more developers.

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Desultory



Joined: Jun 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 08:39 Reply with quote Back to top

My personal reasons for leaving, of which some are consistent with what others have said, are the following:

In order of importance:
1) Ease of getting a game : Blackbox activation - often 2 or 3 players are available for a game but we can't play because we need the arbitrary 4 player activation rule to get a game. Whatever the reasons were for that rule, seem poorly justified reasons to me.

2) Non-automatic / Poor disconnection policies and management. Having to write PM's, reschedule, issue support tickets, and then have to deal with (mostly) domineering admins every time an opponent disconnects and disappears is not a pleasant experience. I requested my donation back because of this, and Christers attitude wasn't friendly either.

3) A big reason for people playing games like Blood Bowl is the painting/artistic creation of team colours and different character faces. But we are still stuck with red and blue standard sprites.
Custom icons/sprites were suggested a long time ago but nothing changes:
https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=26429&highlight=icon
https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=24409&highlight=icon

4) The prioritised updates haven't improved my personal user experience, and for me, not much has significantly changed in 10years. It seems like for any changes to be made (like CPOMB) there needs to be some 100+ community page thread about it, and even then, it takes a long time for anything to happen. My voice isn't heard.

5) The typical internet forum dramas, where someone might ask an innocent question, and then some of the 'community' get upset about nothing, and seem to enjoy a big tangential argument about nothing.

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awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 09:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Desultory wrote:
(lotsa stuff)


1) this was changed because your 1050 poorly developed High Elves wouldn't want to face a 2250 steamrolling Dorfs.

2) automatic or disconnection rules would justify this behavior, something FUMBBL is against by it's own principles. you've read the rules when you first came here, if you couldn't cope with them you could have refrain from registering... or playing.

3) FUMBBL is completely free if you want. we could have dull squares with letters identifying players, but we got sprites instead. it's great for a fan-made, unpaid work.

4) your voice is a voice among many. how many of us can code? and how many of those than code have time and resources to take on EVERY request and coordinate themselves to make non-destructive, bugless changes? it's a huge task.

5) welcome to the internet. it's a mix of friendly answers, silly jokes, tasty pies and RTFM.

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det



Joined: Oct 01, 2017

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 09:23 Reply with quote Back to top

3) I guess it would be impossible to manage for regular play if everybody had their personal icons...but that's why there's league and custom rosters and teams! I had my fair share of "custom icons" and still loving it!
Fanky



Joined: Jul 07, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 09:31 Reply with quote Back to top

det wrote:
3) I guess it would be impossible to manage for regular play if everybody had their personal icons...but that's why there's league and custom rosters and teams! I had my fair share of "custom icons" and still loving it!


Yeah, just play in an cool league like Cibbl or DLE : D

Anyway, i feel that in BB2 you can custom your team colors but at the end of the day the other random players just don't care about it. They don't know your team, they don't know you. It's just players playing vs other players. Here on Fumbbl i can play vs other people. And with time i can get to know them and their teams... so yeah on Fumbbl you can't customize your Orc Team with purple and orange but you can customize your own story.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 12:01 Reply with quote Back to top

awambawamb wrote:
Desultory wrote:
(lotsa stuff)


1) this was changed because your 1050 poorly developed High Elves wouldn't want to face a 2250 steamrolling Dorfs.


I thought it was to prevent cheating by people arranging matches.

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Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 12:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Desultory wrote:


2) I requested my donation back because of this, and Christers attitude wasn't friendly either.


This really cracked me up. Can anyone top that in terms of sense of entitlement?

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stowelly



Joined: Mar 16, 2017

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 12:32 Reply with quote Back to top

det wrote:
3) I guess it would be impossible to manage for regular play if everybody had their personal icons...but that's why there's league and custom rosters and teams! I had my fair share of "custom icons" and still loving it!


Indeed, just imagining the work involved in policing this..... not only from the "That is very questionably a big guy" complaints to the "that Tomb Guardian is definitely not a Skeli" ones. (not forgetting "im not so sure that is a tentacle between that ones legs.....")
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 12:37
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

stowelly wrote:
det wrote:
3) I guess it would be impossible to manage for regular play if everybody had their personal icons...but that's why there's league and custom rosters and teams! I had my fair share of "custom icons" and still loving it!


Indeed, just imagining the work involved in policing this..... not only from the "That is very questionably a big guy" complaints to the "that Tomb Guardian is definitely not a Skeli" ones


I don't think it'd be a big deal tbh, just have an option in the client to use default or custom icons so if you find it confusing you can turn them off, like you can now with pitches and logos.

I think the problems with this come from coding the client to associate icons with individual teams instead of ruleset/races. This is just me guessing and the technical work involved, but I'd be very surprised if 'admin workload' came into the equation at all.

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det



Joined: Oct 01, 2017

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 13:10 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:
stowelly wrote:
det wrote:
3) I guess it would be impossible to manage for regular play if everybody had their personal icons...but that's why there's league and custom rosters and teams! I had my fair share of "custom icons" and still loving it!


Indeed, just imagining the work involved in policing this..... not only from the "That is very questionably a big guy" complaints to the "that Tomb Guardian is definitely not a Skeli" ones


I don't think it'd be a big deal tbh, just have an option in the client to use default or custom icons so if you find it confusing you can turn them off, like you can now with pitches and logos.

I think the problems with this come from coding the client to associate icons with individual teams instead of ruleset/races. This is just me guessing and the technical work involved, but I'd be very surprised if 'admin workload' came into the equation at all.


Good point! I've no idea of the technical difficulties and I'm sure there are other priorities right now. We'll see...Wink
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 14:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Desultory wrote:

1) Ease of getting a game : Blackbox activation - often 2 or 3 players are available for a game but we can't play because we need the arbitrary 4 player activation rule to get a game. Whatever the reasons were for that rule, seem poorly justified reasons to me.

2) Non-automatic / Poor disconnection policies and management. Having to write PM's, reschedule, issue support tickets, and then have to deal with (mostly) domineering admins every time an opponent disconnects and disappears is not a pleasant experience. I requested my donation back because of this, and Christers attitude wasn't friendly either.


1) I agree that the minimum required amount of 4 coaches activating to find a game in Box makes it harder, especially during low traffic timezones, a possible solution is hiding the number of coaches activating and allowing games even with fewer than 4 coaches.
Instead of writing: "3 coaches have activated" the scheduler should write: " Some coaches have activated" without displaying the exact number.
This way you can't be 100% sure to arrange a game vs a friend, because you don't know how many coaches have activated exactly. If that is not enough a further 1/10 games rule could be added.

2) I agree with this, currently my Dark Elf team is stuck in a game abandoned by my opponent on 25 December, he keeps on connecting to the site ignoring the PM I sent him, he ignores security staff as well but they can't force a concession.
An automated concession system after 3 days for the Black Box division would prevent the hassle of bothering admins and wasting time sending PMs and waiting for guys who are not willing to finish the match they abandoned.

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Last edited by MattDakka on Jan 07, 2019 - 14:35; edited 1 time in total
Desultory



Joined: Jun 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 14:33 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
good suggestions


You suggest good solutions, which are quite clearly in my opinion better than the current options, but the problem with FUMBBL is that solutions are probably never going to get implemented, because (a) there will be a handful of people that have decided that the old 4 coaches rule needs to stay for no reason, and it will get argued to death, and (b) no one important enough to implement the change thinks it's important. i.e. our voices aren't heard until there is a 100 page thread of people complaining about it

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 14:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sure that's entirely fair.

You mean a) 'there may be people who decide that the four coaches rule needs to stay for reasons I don't agree with where I cannot provide such a clear argument as to convince them otherwise' and b) 'no one important enough to implement the change thinks it's important i.e. they hear our voices but don't agree'

And/or they may even agree and make those changes. Sorry I don't want to be difficult but in my experience making these decisions and being responsible for them is much harder than being the ones suggesting the decisions and so I want to stick up for the people in that role a little Smile
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2019 - 14:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Reading this, basically I'm seeing our core problem, and it seems to be pretty intractable.

Christer is one guy, and he's got a job doing something else. He loves getting qualified help, and it's available, but he doesn't want help that makes him become a project manager, and that's what it's gonna take to make a major upgrade. But the world moves faster than that.

I'm not sure we can change this dynamic, and I'm not qualified to propose process solutions that would improve on the current state of affairs. But this is the elephant in the room.

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