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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2019 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Tiers are folly. They don't actually inform anyone on HOW to make them sing.


How did you come to that conclusion per say?


https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/8/31/16238142/tiers-are-a-cheap-trick-to-spur-conversation?_ga=2.93804317.1218622408.1555001670-180784814.1545179137

First, I wrote that a long time ago. It gets into why I don't like tiers as a conversation piece. It feels cheap and facile.

Second, how are we approaching coaching integration into tiers of races. Are we assuming a bog standard coach can waltz in and push a 55% winrate with tier 1 races? Or 67%? Or what? What is the baseline here?

Third, tiers themselves don't speak to more successful builds of the team. For example I have a Box Orc team that is perilously low on guard and very flush with DT and +ST. It's not that great. But aha, Orcs are a Tier 1 team? Sure, only if you are actually building a team to their strengths and abilities. If you don't are they a Tier 1 team? It's like saying you have a bonafide awesome recipe for a beef stew and yet you don't use half the ingredients listed in the recipe and make substitutions for the other half. You can't control for coaches making alternative decisions that may work but are far from ideal. Same for Chaos. There is a schema of build that most people follow - is it the best build? Who knows - but what if there were alternative approaches to Chaos that are much better than simply trying to usher the opponent off of the pitch?

Fourth, tiers set up a self reinforcing self selection of teams for coaches. I have banged the drum that High Elves are actually really good at high TV because to actually get a team up to 2300+ you are going to have freaks and sneaks that buoy that TV. You will have a set of tools, some base survivability ahead of elven brothers and some flexibility to get wild even if it winds up a dead end. I play them like a Tier 1 team because I see nothing but opportunities to win during 80% of the game. But alas, if most people see Wood Elves as tier 1 and High Elves as tier 2, they will not even attempt to make High Elves sing like I've tried to.

Fifth, at the end of the day, tiers might get you into a team but they won't inform you about yourself and your strengths and weaknesses as a coach. I have been way more successful with Chaos Dwarves than most any other team in open play. They're boring to me though. It's a very 'paint by numbers' experience. I would rather have some risk of losing and get a real mental workout than do the safe and self indulgent thing of validating myself as a coach. If you only play tier 1 races, build super conventionally, and are happy to just work the racket, what are you doing here long term? I know not everyone is as gung ho about using a game to learn about life but the notion is ripe for the picking.


wow...that's a lot of per saying.

_________________
Hail to Frik! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Raiders of the Lost Tomb
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2019 - 20:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Tiers are folly. They don't actually inform anyone on HOW to make them sing.


How did you come to that conclusion per say?


https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/8/31/16238142/tiers-are-a-cheap-trick-to-spur-conversation?_ga=2.93804317.1218622408.1555001670-180784814.1545179137

First, I wrote that a long time ago. It gets into why I don't like tiers as a conversation piece. It feels cheap and facile.

Second, how are we approaching coaching integration into tiers of races. Are we assuming a bog standard coach can waltz in and push a 55% winrate with tier 1 races? Or 67%? Or what? What is the baseline here?

Third, tiers themselves don't speak to more successful builds of the team. For example I have a Box Orc team that is perilously low on guard and very flush with DT and +ST. It's not that great. But aha, Orcs are a Tier 1 team? Sure, only if you are actually building a team to their strengths and abilities. If you don't are they a Tier 1 team? It's like saying you have a bonafide awesome recipe for a beef stew and yet you don't use half the ingredients listed in the recipe and make substitutions for the other half. You can't control for coaches making alternative decisions that may work but are far from ideal. Same for Chaos. There is a schema of build that most people follow - is it the best build? Who knows - but what if there were alternative approaches to Chaos that are much better than simply trying to usher the opponent off of the pitch?

Fourth, tiers set up a self reinforcing self selection of teams for coaches. I have banged the drum that High Elves are actually really good at high TV because to actually get a team up to 2300+ you are going to have freaks and sneaks that buoy that TV. You will have a set of tools, some base survivability ahead of elven brothers and some flexibility to get wild even if it winds up a dead end. I play them like a Tier 1 team because I see nothing but opportunities to win during 80% of the game. But alas, if most people see Wood Elves as tier 1 and High Elves as tier 2, they will not even attempt to make High Elves sing like I've tried to.

Fifth, at the end of the day, tiers might get you into a team but they won't inform you about yourself and your strengths and weaknesses as a coach. I have been way more successful with Chaos Dwarves than most any other team in open play. They're boring to me though. It's a very 'paint by numbers' experience. I would rather have some risk of losing and get a real mental workout than do the safe and self indulgent thing of validating myself as a coach. If you only play tier 1 races, build super conventionally, and are happy to just work the racket, what are you doing here long term? I know not everyone is as gung ho about using a game to learn about life but the notion is ripe for the picking.


wow...that's a lot of per saying.


I have thought about it some. Wink
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 15, 2019 - 20:40 Reply with quote Back to top

I have an excellent record vs Wood Elves with my main High Elf team. When those dancers try to leap into my cage, I almost expect to hear the bones break ... Wink

Especially when they're using a tree, they might as well be down 200TV.

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"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2019 - 02:47 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
I have an excellent record vs Wood Elves with my main High Elf team. When those dancers try to leap into my cage, I almost expect to hear the bones break ... Wink

Especially when they're using a tree, they might as well be down 200TV.


Yeah, like in helf vs. welf or eulf matches, I feel utterly confident based on the team build and coaching chops. Gimme those games all day long, Bowl Bot.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2019 - 03:03 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
JellyBelly wrote:
I have an excellent record vs Wood Elves with my main High Elf team. When those dancers try to leap into my cage, I almost expect to hear the bones break ... Wink

Especially when they're using a tree, they might as well be down 200TV.


Yeah, like in helf vs. welf or eulf matches, I feel utterly confident based on the team build and coaching chops. Gimme those games all day long, Bowl Bot.


I usually find welf easier, because they often have a wasted tree, and I find pelf are more likely to have better defenders, since the Blitzers only need 2 skills for blodge/SS/DT. Plus, they're AV8, so a bit less easy to knock off the pitch than Wardancers.

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
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