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Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2020 - 13:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello there,
I made some teams for a small league that already uses SL teams as well as some "famous" tabletop homebrews. Some of them are designed to be better, or much worse than others.

Here's one I'm not satisfied with: the Rotblood tribe. It is inspired by the Vermintide 2 antagonists. I didn't play that game but it provides a lore basis for a team that would consist in an alliance of chaos-worshipping inhabitants of Norsca, both skavens and humans, with an emphasis on Nurgle.

I wanted to design them as an average hybrid team (nurgleXskaven).
I won't include my first attempts because it was considered too strong or too weak pretty unanimously by the other coaches.

He's the third attempt :
0-12 Rotten 5 3 3 8 40 000 Decay GM APS
0-4 Skaven Slave 7 3 3 7 50 000 G MAPS
0-2 Globadier 6 3 3 8 50 000 Regeneration, Bombardier, Secret Weapon G MAPS
0-2 Plaguebearer 4 4 1 9 100 000 Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Regeneration GSM AP
0-1 Bile Troll 4 5 1 8 130 000 Loner, Really Stupid, Regeneration, Mighty Blow, Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance SM GPA
0-2 Berserker 6 3 3 7 90 000 Block, Frenzy, Jump up SG AP

The rotten was added in replacement of an original "Nurgle Zealot" lineman that was basically a norse lineman with -1MA and mutation access. The issue with that is that it made the linemen too strong compared to the rest of the team.
Skaven Slaves were originally thought as alternative 0-12 linemen, but some coachs thought that compared with the rest of the team, their MA7 would place them as positionals. So now it's 0-4.
The globadier originally had pass access on a simple roll, which was too strong. Now it's just a 6/3/3/8 skryre bomber with regen, which I think is fine (https://fumbbl.com/help:ClanS for reference).
The plaguebearer didn't change through tests. It's a nurgle bloater that -1AGI and -10k, but you can only take two. They are painfully slow compared to the rest of the team, which makes them work more like black orcs in the orc team.
The Bile Troll was also there from the beginning. It's a troll with some nurgle gifts for 20k more and mutation access.
The Berserker is a recent addition - the idea is to give a bit of norsca to the team, as well as a reliable positional with a lot of added value, a bit like the skaven blitzer in the underworld team. I'm still not sure I should give mutation access to it... Maybe on a double?

RR is 60k, they don't have access to apos so they rely purely on regeneration for the players that have it. Lore-wise they don't really care about dying and will just send waves after waves until they win, so I thought it was fitting, but other coaches have expressed some doubts. So I'm hesitating between adding more regen or the apo.
They don't have nurgle's rot either, because they are a hybrid team, but the plaguebearers could get it (maybe the troll as well?).

So what do you think of them and what would you change? Keep in mind that they are designed to play against SL teams.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2020 - 15:32 Reply with quote Back to top

The troll only has av8; i'm not sure any other troll has that? I'd make it 9, no change in price, or leave it at 8 and drop the price 10k. Given the loss of apo, I'd make it 9.

The berserker should have M on doubles, but I'd consider changing something about it to be more nurglesque, like dropping Jump Up as they aren't quite as nimble as a normal berserker, and replacing it with either disturbing presence or foul appearence (but not both). I'd also consider giving them regeneration and increasing the price by 10k. I think the addition of these 2 instead of 2 bloaters is a good change.

I'd also give the team overall Nurgle's Rot to make Rotten, particularly since they don't have an apo.

Skaven linemen are terrible, especially without an apo. 0-4 or 0-12 no one is going to take more than 1 or 2, so it really doesn't matter. Have you considered a mix of rotters and skaven slave, and just making it a 0-16 7337 Decay GM APS 40,000 player (which could also justify the new name, otherwise, shouldn't the 0-12 be called Rotters since they are identical to the Nurgle player)?

Regardless of the decision on the rotten you still end up with 16 linemen (12 rotters and 4 skaven OR 16 rotten) + a big guy + 6 positionals (2 of which are secret weapons). I'd give the team another 0-2 positional, probably a nurglified skaven/norse thrower (6/3/3/7 pass, same skill as the berserkers get, GP MAS, 60,000 and if the berserkers get regeneration, then these guys would as well and the price would go up by 10k).
Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2020 - 16:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the feedback!

Regarding the troll : Yeah I forget to mention, I put AV8 on troll so it's closer to a "snow troll" aka Yehtee. But good point.

Regarding the berserker : I agree about M access and jump up, but I'm not too sure about regen AND foul appearence/disturbing presence. Maybe regen is enough (so without a price increase)? I feel like if I put the nurgle skills on all players, the team would be too much of an alternative Nurgle team instead of a hybrid one.

Regarding regen & lack of apo: I'll probably add some regens on all positionals (leaving the rotter and skaven without anything to protect them), and nurgle's rot on everyone but skaven and berserkers.

Regarding the linemen: yeah originally I had both linemen on 0-12 (skaven & norse rotters, btw it's rotter not rotten, that's a mistake on my part) and I considered making the default lineman skaven or rotters afterwards. I was convinced by one of the coaches who tested the team that skaven linemen were too strong. But maybe I could do a mix indeed... I'm just not too sure about MA7, maybe it would be better (well, worse, but more balanced) with MA6. Or keep MA7 and add Animosity, since they are slaves?

Regarding the additional positional: I'm not too sure a proper thrower would fit well in a chaos team like this one, it seems a bit too "professional". Since the team is rather cheap overall (currently you can take a full roster of 12 players including all positionals and 3RR), maybe it could be a Runner 7/3/3/7 block/dauntless/regen GA MPS for 100k instead?
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2020 - 18:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Linemen: 7337 is a really bad statline. Decay will make them die even more often. I really don't know how this coach thought skaven linemen are too strong, but *shrug*. Look at any ghoul. Now take away dodge, AND A access.. and kill them even faster. I don't really mind your current 0-12 rotter + 0-4 skaven linemen, I just though I'd offer an alternative.

Berserker: I'm not really sure you could explain regen WITHOUT one of the nurgle skills, but I also don't know enough about the team you're basing it on. Ideally you'd go back to that base to get the berserker and new positional.

My thought is this though: you started with a hybrid of nurgle and skaven. Then the only 'true' skaven added was the linerat, so you didn't really DO anything skaven. (Yes you added the globadier, but coming from a mostly core background, speed 6 and av 8 does NOT feel skaven; it feels more like a buffed Rotter) So you really want a skaven positional. The norse thing comes out of left field, and you have to be super careful adding block to a team; your runner suggestion could still work though, particularly since the linemen don't have block. But I'd still question the same thing: if they don't have a nurgle gift, how do they get regen? I'd be tempted to call the berserker a crazed skaven blitzer instead of a berserker, and drop the norse aspect entirely based on your original description.

Nurgle's Rot would then be added to everyone, flat out. Because the team is nurgle infested, even things like the berserkers.
ben_awesome



Joined: May 11, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2020 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Nurgles rot is a contagious disease, if 1 player has it all players have it, however you can be a nurgle based team and not have the rot.

Based on my knowledge of Skaven (Clan Pestilence), Norse (the BB team) and humans, I'd suggest something along the lines of:

0-16 Plague Monks (Human and Skaven): 7337 Regen 50k GM SAP
0-1 Plague Censor Bearer: 4718 ball and Chain Secret Weapon, Disturbing Presence Foul Appearance, no hands S MAPG
0-4 Berserkers: 6337: foul Appearance Frenzy SG MAP

Sweet and Simple

Potentially add a big guy if you want to counter the ball and chain secret weapon
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2020 - 21:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I like (note that the names are NOT to be used, they just give an idea of the role of the player)
0-16 Rotten skaven (7337 decay GM APS 40k)
0-2 Rotten Brutes (4419 foul appearence disturbing presence regen GSM AP 110k)
0-2 Slavering crazies (6338 block frenzy disturbing presence regen GS MAP 110k)
0-2 frenzied runners (7337 block frenzy sure hands disturbing presence GA MPS 100k)
0-2 Globadiers (6338 bombardier regeneration secret weapon G MAPS 50k)
0-1 Bile Troll (4519 Loner, Really Stupid, Regeneration, Mighty Blow, Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance SM GPA 130k)

70k re-rolls, nurgles rot, no apo
Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2020 - 12:22 Reply with quote Back to top

So taking into account all that has been said, I think I'll test the following next time:

0-12 Skaven Slave 7 3 3 7 40 000 Decay, Animosity GM APS
0-2 Globadier 6 3 3 8 50 000 Regeneration, Bombardier, Secret Weapon G MAPS
0-2 Rotblood Blightstormer 4 4 1 9 100 000 Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Regeneration GSM AP
0-2 Rotblood Berserker 6 3 3 7 100 000 Block, Frenzy, Disturbing Presence, Regen GS APM
0-2 Rabid Runner 7 3 3 7 100 000 Frenzy, Sure hands, Foul appearance GAM SP
0-1 Bile Troll 4 5 1 9 130 000 Loner, Really Stupid, Regeneration, Mighty Blow, Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance SM GPA

RR 70k (because it's a mixed team in a way), no apo, nurgle's rot on everyone.

At 1000k it's possible to take :
1 Bile Troll
5 Slaves
5 positionals at 100k
2RR

or something like
7 slaves
5 positionals at 100k
3 RR

Only being able to take 5 positionals isn't that bad I think, and the globadiers are definitely low priority. I still keep them in the team because of the theme but I don't expect coaches to buy them very often.

Some notes :
I'll try with a skaven lineman with decay (and maybe animosity towards non-skaven) and see what happens. With the addition of fast positionals it should make the team much faster.
The globadier, Bile Troll and the Blightstormer are unchanged (the latter is just renamed). The globadier doesn't feel like a regular skaven but technically is, the Blightstormer is a human.
The berserker gets regen and disturbing presence instead of jump up, for 10k more. Also gets M access on doubles. Human.
The Rabid Runner is a very nerfed version of the frenzied runner suggested by Nelphine. It's designed to be the team's ball carrier, with frenzy, sure hands and foul appearance. It's a skaven slave that went crazy with Nurgle and decided to help willingly (maybe too willingly). No regen but access to mutations on simple rolls like the skaven linemen.

@ben_awesome : I'm not a big fan of having linemen with regen because it feels too "undead" thematically (or maybe it would work with a Nurgle team that is more on the demonic side). The ball&chain feels very skaven and fitting for a Pestilens team, but the Bloodrot aren't mad scientists to the same extent as Pestilens. I replaced "Plaguebearer" with "Blightstormer" to avoid confusion. There are Globadiers because they are in the source material, but I don't think there are ball&chain.
Just having four bersekers without even block looks like it would be a terrible team no one would want to play - from what I've seen, frenzy teams are quite unpopular (judging from the Kurnous for example), and frenzy just makes them unreliable without block.
I already have some terrible fun teams such as Necroflings and Assembly of Trolls, so I think the crazier coachs will prefer to play them.

@Nelphine :They are a skavenXnurgle hybrid but the Nurgle part is chaos-worshipping humans from Norsca. So it's Nurgle, but without Gors and with more frenzy. Papa Nurgle cares about all his children, but these still come last in his big rotten heart - especially the skaven. I think it's particularly fitting to have expendable skaven players (even the positional) and a motley line-up of positionals overall, with classic nurgle stuff (slow and steady), norscan crazyness and skaven rabidness.

Thanks again for the feedback!
wallenstein



Joined: Dec 20, 2012

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2020 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

just a comment on the "slow and steady", they're not. having mv7 linos and only two slow positionals is not "slow and steady"
i just skimmed over the roster, but they seem quite strong, better linos than nurgle, starting with block and sure hands, more resistant than skaven
Diablange



Joined: Apr 27, 2020

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2020 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

wallenstein wrote:
just a comment on the "slow and steady", they're not. having mv7 linos and only two slow positionals is not "slow and steady"
i just skimmed over the roster, but they seem quite strong, better linos than nurgle, starting with block and sure hands, more resistant than skaven

I agree on that Wink

I'd probably drop sure hands, I don't see how it fits with rabid runners. It would also have the benefit to avoid having 6 positionnals costing 100k each.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2020 - 17:22 Reply with quote Back to top

actually since you dropped block, the rabid runner should probably be 80k as is.
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2020 - 17:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Give the rabid runner a bunch of mutations that don't get picked all that often as starting skills but drop a point of AG.
Give it VLL, Two Heads, Extra Arms, Big Hand, Prehensile Tail
You will, "pretty much", end up in the same place with regards to dodging & pickups but with a slight nerf to pass options whilst still remaining on theme.
You could also go to town on a cool mutation mini Smile
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