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Poll
Never been afraid to...
Say what's on my mind at any given time of day, cause I'm a
11%
 11%  [ 2 ]
Talk about anything. Anything? Anything!
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Wut?
83%
 83%  [ 15 ]
Total Votes : 18


pielover101



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 12:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Not gonna lie, when I first saw the bb2020 roster it continually got worse and worse the more I looked at both it and the skill changes (and IMO it was already pretty bad Razz ). Now after another look there are some very minor redeeming qualities I think are worth having a look at.

Big Boys
The reason I, and I imagine a lot of other people, liked Renegades, before quickly realizing lineman spam was objectively better. Renegades are now forced to use these derpy bois for both Strength and Strength access. Changes to Claws and Tentacles make these guys worse than before, but you can give them Block (and Pro if you so desire) for a moderate surcharge, or give them Brawler. The other change is you get to use the Rat Ogre (?!) and have to pick 3/4, but which 3 would you choose?

I would go Troll/Ogre/Rat Ogre, and the reason I'd pick the Rogre over Mino is Animal Savagery! The biggest problem with big boys is reliability, and with AS you can put a guy next to the rogre and, at the expense of that guy, they are guaranteed to do what you want them to. No more wasted big guy blitzes (and you will need them to blitz because the Human Linos sure as hell won't be)!

Thrower?!
A new positional. At first he seemed like an objectively worse thrower than humans for almost the same cost, and that is true, but he will not throw. Instead On The Ball and Fumblerooskie can guarantee you can retrieve the ball from any kick space and get it forward with a handoff for a TTM OTT, and in general just move the ball quickly while bypassing both passing and animosity (Thrower > Fmblrsk2Human Lino > handoff) Safe Pair of Hands seemed awful, but the skill seems quite good and it would be expensive to get otherwise from the Agility tree. He wants quite a few other skills, so would take a looong time to get gud but I think he's worth it (esp. if you add leader to mitigate the cost).

Human Lino
Gone from perhaps the best to (one of) the worst players on the team. I honestly would just roll random generals and if it looks like I could compliment their random skills with a specific mutation then start choosing.

Orc Lino
You know what Av 10+ is good for? Well yes line of scrimmage BUT ALSO being the rogres chew toy Very Happy Give him block then save up for more Av and reduce AS negative impact on your team to almost 0.

Delf Lino
First off, 5k bump is dumd. Second, this guy is still your ball carrier, however by the time your thrower (or a random human) starts to piece together the skills he needs to handle the ball this guy can instead switch to finishing a solid sweeper build and skip sure hands.

Goblin Lino
SNEAKY GIT! Can 100% get dirty player too, and once your thrower is online your TTM OTT can be attempted 100% of the time so quite important in the list. The biggest problem is how many skills he needs and how likely he lives to get more than 1, so its possible a DP lino should save up for SG instead to free up OTT/ball retrieval skills.

Skaven Lino
I don't know if its better or worse now that the human linos have been nerfed, because before the rat could be a sacker, and now whichever lino gets strip ball, wrestle or tackle first can do it at least 10k cheaper. Perhaps you build it as the killer, the only S skill you need for that is MB...

As a whole the team I think is still objectively worse and completely different to what we're used to, but there may be a way forward. Perhaps this is it, or maybe you have some better ideas. I'd love to hear them!

Cheers, pielover101 <3
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 15:21 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem is that's a lot of skills to get in 15 games without nominating MVPs
pielover101



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 16:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Very good point, I suppose the apporach would vary depending on the mode you want to play. I guess my OP is for a perpetual or more TV lenient league.

The only position I see Renegades having in the competitive modes is in BBT if it becomes a 1 point team. I think you do away with the thrower, and I think the big boys (especially the 3-4 skill rogre) and the Delf are the players getting kept in the rebuy. Random lino skills can get them involved quickly enough with stray MVPs, and a good set may be worth rebuying too. Renegades as we know it would be dead to seasons anyway, so this may be a blessing in disguise Smile
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 21:17 Reply with quote Back to top

C0ddlefish wrote:
The problem is that's a lot of skills to get in 15 games without nominating MVPs


This quote misunderstands seasons. You don't start with a fresh new skill less team every 15 games, you keep building them.

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C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2020 - 22:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Perhaps oversimplified but how many players will you retain each redraft 3? 4?

How many players will make it past the 40k redraft for a 3rd season?

So you'll have to earn a lot of those skills listed above during your 15 games.

If you work on starter 3 bigs 2RR team as mentioned above that's roughly your first 1000TV at redraft. If you ignore bench, Apo, 3rd RR etc that leave 350TV for retaining skills & players. That actually better than some teams (who miss starting positionals) so maybe it's better than I thought but cant see many players making it beyond their second season.

EDIT: the other issue Renegades have is continuation. Let's say you build the supersacker Elf. As long as you redraft him/her you can't start building their replacement because there 'can only be one!'. So by season 2,3 maybe 4 at a push you've got to get rid and start all over again. Most other teams you have 2-4 of key positionals so you can have a skilled one and be building his/her replacement at the same time.
pielover101



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2020 - 01:28 Reply with quote Back to top

If I were going to take this theoretical Renegades team to a third season then I'd still be taking the rogre and the delf in the rebuy, and probably starting without the rookie troll and ogre to retain some of the linos (though I probably shouldn't start the team without an apo Very Happy ). Technically you could push the 2 key players to 4 or 5 seasons.

Edit: Rogre, Delf, 9 linos, 2 RR and Apo is 865k, leaving 485k for skills on your 2 beasts. If they're legends with 10 primaries and 2 secondaries that's 280k, and at 40k fees a season you can even get them from a 5th season to a 6th!

Edit: If you're feeling really adventurous you could drop to 1 rr and no starting app and take it to a 9th season Very Happy
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2020 - 06:59 Reply with quote Back to top

That's an interesting point of view. I like it.

One thing to consider is also that while your rebuy cash is consumed by the agent fees, your TV is not affected, so your team will be low compared to others in the same league, and more developed than similarly sized teams in a matchmaking environment.

So you're either getting rookier and rookier opponents as you go through the seasons, or you get wizards and the new improved stars in a league. Which doesn't sound so bad.


Last edited by Java on Nov 25, 2020 - 20:22; edited 1 time in total
pielover101



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2020 - 08:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I feel sorry for the rookie team that has to play against 2 legends straight out the gate because you had to blow 320k on WTR Very Happy With the inducements being much stronger and being able to chip in from your own treasury, being down actually seems pretty good. Even if you have to shave a reroll to start it's only 30k more via inducements to get team training RRs while you save up.

9 seasons seems like a lot of fun but what if you want to build a tourney team? As someone who's only tournament was a bar brawl team deletion, I think the team can make a push for a tournament ready list on the third season. Your 2 key pieces will be approaching legend and should hit it by the 14th game. If you're willing to cut back to 1 rr no apo (you dont have to win games here, just get your key pieces through it) at the start you'd have ~300k to retain another big guy over a lino and 2-3 skilled linos (# of seasons depending). The end product would be 2 legends, 3 stars and most others with 1-2 skills (random MVPs). Thanks to the random skills for plebs the team would probably be ~1700k TV with 13 players, 3 rr and an apo by the 14th game. I have no idea how this would stack up to whatever the competition is but it seems at least decent.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2020 - 19:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I would definitely think that teams like these with some cheap fodder OR teams with a lot of starting skills should do well on the rebuy. Renegades will have some options whereas some rosters will be looking at slim pickings. I guess more than 2 rrs will be unusual.

A killer who is not a big guy surely has to be considered in any season rebuys.

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pielover101



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 25, 2020 - 23:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Great point! I would add to that teams that only need to skill up half the team to do well (Elves, but new Renegades fit this well). I think the only teams that will have a really hard time are ones that require most players to have skills to function properly and don't start with any skills and have an expensive base cost (Chaos, Nurgle, old Renegades, deleted slann Very Happy )

A lino killer sounds really good. Gives you a chance to save up to 120k on the rebuy (1 less double) and you can actually try and cycle them. I am still really confident in the rogre though, we haven't seen what they're capable of when you give them (almost) full control and as many doubles as you want. Nothing stopping you from having 2 killers though Very Happy
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