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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 19:24 Reply with quote Back to top

So, I've been thinking a bit about elves under the new ruleset. Is it possible that they are about to become one of the most underhanded on the pitch?

Most teams do not have linemen with access to both agility and general skills. It is also difficult for most teams to skill up their linemen. Hence, elves will most easily be able to get the Sneaky Git/Dirty Player combination.

Factor in two things. Pro elf linemen are relatively cheap while both Dark and High elf linemen have enough armor to make them more difficult to target. Games played at lower TV mean you will see fewer mighty blow and claw will be a rarity.

I also think most teams will run with fewer players making fouling better bang for the buck.

Sure every team can foul but doing it without SG is pretty risky. I envision most teams will want to save their SPP and get one Lineman SG but most teams will not be able to spam it.

The exception to this is probably wood elves just due to their cost combined with AV. As usual, your line elves probably won't live long in any case without block.

Anyone else have thoughts on the matter?
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 20:20 Reply with quote Back to top

I would say that Ghouls in an Undead team are pretty good candidates as well for a good Sneaky Git player. They should be fairly quick to farm SPP on and are fairly cheap players. Human Catchers are also a pretty good candidate in my opinion.

I think it is hard to say... but I would probably try to develop at least one Sneaky Git/DP player on any team with good access to players with both General and Agility as Primary skill.

Players with high movement and/or access to skills like dodge or high agility are excellent players for taking advantage of Sneaky Git. You can run up, foul, and then run off to provide some assist someplace else.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 20:41 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
I would say that Ghouls in an Undead team are pretty good candidates as well for a good Sneaky Git player. They should be fairly quick to farm SPP on and are fairly cheap players. Human Catchers are also a pretty good candidate in my opinion.

I think it is hard to say... but I would probably try to develop at least one Sneaky Git/DP player on any team with good access to players with both General and Agility as Primary skill.

Players with high movement and/or access to skills like dodge or high agility are excellent players for taking advantage of Sneaky Git. You can run up, foul, and then run off to provide some assist someplace else.


Oh yes. I had forgotten about moving after the foul. Even better.

The only thing I slightly disagree with is taking SG on a ghoul. Perhaps on undead where you have 4 but with Necros, I think you need them as backup ball carriers.
Joe1982



Joined: Dec 31, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 21:23 Reply with quote Back to top

I'll definitely be skilling up SG DP ghouls, but yes that is on an undead team. I quite often only play with 3 ghouls anyway so an extra for fouling will be good. 4 dodgers at perpetually lowish TV will be good anyway.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 22:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Human Catchers are cheaper than Ghouls and only barely pricier than Pro Elf linos, and are MA8.

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Medon



Joined: Jan 28, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 23:15 Reply with quote Back to top

So human catchers should be rebranded as human foulers
Joe1982



Joined: Dec 31, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 23:31 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Human Catchers are cheaper than Ghouls and only barely pricier than Pro Elf linos, and are MA8.


Yes I agree even better for human catchers, but I dont play humans. And the ghouls will be more useful overall, perhaps.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 09:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
Oh yes. I had forgotten about moving after the foul. Even better.

The only thing I slightly disagree with is taking SG on a ghoul. Perhaps on undead where you have 4 but with Necros, I think you need them as backup ball carriers.


On an Undead team you have access to four Ghouls so I see no reason why you can't develop one of them into a SG, DP player. On a Necromantic team I can see the issue with not affording that and you might be relegated to using Zombies for fouling on that team.
uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 13:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I think effective fouling is usually to do with the number of assists rather than specialist players. If you can more or less guarantee to break av every time then DP typically becomes better than SG. More agile teams should be better at providing more assists but potentially worse at protecting knocked down players.

Moving after the foul - this is a risk. Its always best to make the foul the last play of the turn in case you get sent off, I wouldn't want to be fouling on the way to make an important assist very frequently.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 14:10 Reply with quote Back to top

with a frequent 1350 reset, random mvps, and nerf'd completions, I doubt this will happen often.

Most teams will have two superheroes and a bunch of joes with 0-1 skills.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 14:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
with a frequent 1350 reset, random mvps, and nerf'd completions, I doubt this will happen often.

Most teams will have two superheroes and a bunch of joes with 0-1 skills.


yep. One skill line elf = Sneaky Git
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 15:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
with a frequent 1350 reset, random mvps, and nerf'd completions, I doubt this will happen often.

Most teams will have two superheroes and a bunch of joes with 0-1 skills.
Human Catchers may still make it there, as they have fairly good SPP prospects. But yeah, Ghoul #4 getting to 2 skills seems unlikely. But there will be times. Your elf lineman scores a TD in game #15, you take a random skill, get Dirty Player, keep the player, and it's only 8 more SPP to Sneaky Git and a 90k DP/SG fouler. In the world of random MVPs, that could be just 2 games even though you're not hitting or scoring with him.

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Last edited by JackassRampant on Dec 15, 2020 - 16:27; edited 1 time in total
Muff2n



Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 16:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Well you only need SG to have the removal odds in your favour. DP is just icing.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 16:47 Reply with quote Back to top

The benefit with SG is that you don't need good fouling opportunities... if you don't break armour you never get sent of and can keep moving to do the assist.

This is why SG is so powerful on mobile players.

It can be hard to get really good opportunities to foul with a regular DP player if you can't get enough assists. Sure you can now use Guard to get assists as well so some teams certainly have a benefit there.

Ghouls and Catchers can usually get two chosen skill without that much effort to get a nice fouler going. Even just SG is OK in my opinion where DP is just icing on the cake. In a human team you can still have a Lineman with DP for those big foul opportunities, likewise in an Undead team a Skeleton with DP.

In an Undead team I would consider SG on my second Ghoul gaining his first skill.

In my opinion fouling is an important part of the game and a relatively reliable way to get rid of opposing players, for some teams the only reliable way to do so.
Joe1982



Joined: Dec 31, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2020 - 17:33 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
The benefit with SG is that you don't need good fouling opportunities... if you don't break armour you never get sent of and can keep moving to do the assist.

This is why SG is so powerful on mobile players.

It can be hard to get really good opportunities to foul with a regular DP player if you can't get enough assists. Sure you can now use Guard to get assists as well so some teams certainly have a benefit there.

Ghouls and Catchers can usually get two chosen skill without that much effort to get a nice fouler going. Even just SG is OK in my opinion where DP is just icing on the cake. In a human team you can still have a Lineman with DP for those big foul opportunities, likewise in an Undead team a Skeleton with DP.

In an Undead team I would consider SG on my second Ghoul gaining his first skill.

In my opinion fouling is an important part of the game and a relatively reliable way to get rid of opposing players, for some teams the only reliable way to do so.


Good point about the not breaking armour - that does make mobile SG more attractive. I am thinking of rolling random general on all four ghouls. Block, Wrestle, Tackle, DP, sure hands, strip ball are all great for them. Frenzy, Fend, etc. OK. Follow up as needed (e.g., wrestle, follow with Tackle)
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