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Poll
Do you agree with most of the points indicated in this thread?
yes
5%
 5%  [ 9 ]
No
65%
 65%  [ 101 ]
I don't care: i will play BB whatever be the rules
24%
 24%  [ 38 ]
I will abandon BB2020 in any case
3%
 3%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 154


Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 20:22 Reply with quote Back to top

nah the problem is that most of the details you've proposed, i disagree with. you specifically don't have an option for 'bb2020 got 90% of its changes right, but there are a few things that would be nice to clean up further'
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 20:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
nah the problem is that most of the details you've proposed, i disagree with. you specifically don't have an option for 'bb2020 got 90% of its changes right, but there are a few things that would be nice to clean up further'


i think the kick off table is already a point taken in consideration by G&W. I do not think tjhat a soft version of Blitz! or Perfect Defence or Pitch Invasion make sense. I would remove completely

But in my opinion the most important point is the 8 face dice.
I explain you why
imagine you've spent an enormous amount of time defending your advantage. i'm not just talking about punching, but a studied positional defense, maybe for 30 minutes. In the end your opponent, who throughout the match has tried to make impossible dodge or random things, decides in the last round 8 to go and get the ball that is sitting inside 3 tackle zone and make a long bomb. with the dice of six and the reroll if he has an AG5 he can try to make 5+ and 6+.
http://www.elyoukey.com/sac/
probability of success 14%.
that's a lot! It is as if in a football game dominated positionally by a team at the end you decide the game by rolling a 6 dice.
The dice of 8 would reduce the possibility for those who "play at random" to access impossible results.
For me the victory must be at 80% the prize of a studied game, prepared and the result of training.
Not by chance
With the current rules of BB2020 the random factor is still too high and one of the main reasons is the discourse that if you roll 6 whatever negative modifiers are applied to the roll you will ALWAYS get a good result.


So why this is wrong?
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 20:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Footballs SLIP OUT OF THE HAND and go backwards all the time. The Player loses his Grip on the Backwards motion of the Arm that occurs before the Forwards motion of the arm occurs. YES it happens.

You don't know anything about the game so you don't understand Football OR Blood Bowl. So YOU think it is crazy. What is crazy is how IGNORANT you are on this subject yet you still think you KNOW something when you know NOTHING.
You have probably never even SEEN a Regulations Football in person or held it or even TRIED to Throw it. It is a difficult skill to Master.
Most people cannot Throw a Football more than 5 to 10 feet (2 to 4 Meters) with any accuracy. And their accuracy drops even further when you consider the LARGEST and FASTEST people on the planet are about to rip your body to the ground and leave you in a broken pile.

You have probably NEVER been hit as hard as people get hit in an American Football game. It is rated the same as being hit by a CAR multiple times per game by scientists who have done the studies to train the injuries from the game.

You know NOTHING about the subject and you prove your ignorance further with every post.


argos_72 wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
Yeah. If thrown by an Orc Blocker or a Skaven Lineman an American Football will be thrown inaccurately.



is it possible in american footbal that a player throw the ball IN FRONT of him and by mistake throw the ball 6 square BEHIND him? Oh yes it is possible if this player become crazy. Fumble is possible even if happening with a natural 1 meand 16% of the time. Is not so unfrequent
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 20:52 Reply with quote Back to top

So, 80% of games, you need to reward the training and coach choices and studying.

Then, the opponent makes a 14% play, and wins anyway.

Those two statements DO NOT CONTRADICT EACH OTHER.

The luck you just described is already, with the rules of the game as is, so rare that it will NOT prevent rewarding coach skill and positioning more than 80% of the time.

So either you actually want even less luck (and honestly, I'd say from how you talk , you want luck to not matter 95% of the time which I'm sorry I completely disagree with) OR the game already does what you want.
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 20:56 Reply with quote Back to top

As a counterpoint, it's nice to always have that option of the crazy play that could work on a 666.
Otherwise, the game can get choked out early by a superior player.
I don't like the randomness of player removal in those games where you're playing 7 v 11 before you've had a turn due to some "lucky" cas dice. All part of the game sadly.
I'd like to see something done with KO's where the first roll is at 4+, next roll at 3+, then 2+ thereafter to recover. Reduces the chances of being shorthanded through bad luck.
At the end of they day, it's all about dealing with the percentages as best you can
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 20:57 Reply with quote Back to top

The CHAOS is THE POINT. It makes the game FUN like NO OTHER GAME.

You don't understand it. That doesn't make it BAD. That is what makes it GOOD.

Again.
Go play some other EVENTUALLY VERY BORING and PREDICTABLE GAME where everybody has to use the same 4 or 5 tactics and rely on the same 4 or 5 BROKEN mechanics and tedious rules.

Stop trying to RUIN THE FUN of the ONLY GAME to is willing to try to SIMULATE the actual CHAOS of weather and how it affects the game and the CHAOS of a Fantasy environment and how that affects the game.

Go play some other BORING GAME and leave this ball of CHAOS alone to be the game that it IS.
OR
(and it really IS this simple and this black and white)
Just ENJOY this great game for what it IS.

You want the random changes CHANGED because YOU SUCK as a COACH.
YOU are a BAD COACH who cannot PREPARE for the CHAOS so YOU think the CHAOS SUCKS... but it is not the CHAOS that sucks... it is not the randomness that sucks... it is YOU.
You cannot ADAPT to it. You do not COMPREHEND it.
So you want to CHANGE THE GAME rather than CHANGE TO THE GAME.

It is a poor Artist that Blames his Brush for his results.


argos_72 wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:


As for the various EDITIONS. I have been playing this game sine 2ND EDITION. I have played EVERY RULESET except 2020 because I have been too busy.
I am also a PROFESSIONAL REFEREE and UMPIRE and work 4 different major Sports and if only I had the time I could work 6 different sports... but there is only so much time.
Every Sport has a Rules Committee and many of them change the RULES in their sport EVERY YEAR by a little bit. Many of them have totally different Rules Books in the same Sport.
It is NOT unusual


exactly because you follow this game since 20 years you knwo that several amendment to the ruleset has been done in the past. 20 years ago the referee inblood bowl spot the foul only if double is rolled in the armour roll. Not on the injury roll. This has been changed. Now in BB2020 several other things will be changed.
I never see a game with som many changes in 20 years. This is a demonstration that EVEN the poor designers of this crazy game recognize that they did a lot of mess.
Introducing chaos for free for fun is not a sport. Is a slot machine. is russian roulette.
I am just asking to make the game LITTLE BIT less crazy . that's all.
I am not asking to abolish randomicity or whatever

Apothecary must be not random.
piutch invasion perfect defence change meteo every drive is not fun is just chaos. nothing to do with player's ability
have the ball scattering 6 or 12 square in the OPPOSITE direction applied to a force is not only an abomination in the world of Newton's rule, but even the Lord of The Ring will laugh about such stupid event.

I play chess and I play Blood bowl. I play several table top games. I have never ever see a game with so many rules amendments like blood bowl in 25 years

reason is simple: the rule has been designed for fun. without any big mathematic reasoning behind. that's my point of view of course .
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 21:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Watch the Doug Flutie Pass to beat Miami when he was at Boston College.
Watch the Kick Six replay when Auburn beat Alabama.
Watch the Music City Miracle when the Tennessee Titans won that game on a miracle play.

Watch ANY Fade Pass caught in the corner of the End Zone. You can see that in ANY GAME.
Watch ANY Barry Sanders Highlights Video.
Watch the Southern Miss vs Louisville game where Brett Favre throws a Pass off of a Louisville Defenders Helmet then lands in the End Zone for the winning Touchdown.

Watch American Football... the game this game is BASED ON.
Not only us every freaking detail you call CRAZY something that can happen in REALITY but much of it is COMMON PLACE in the REAL GAME. (Except of course some of the elements that are clearly from Fantasy like Throw Team-mate or a Beast of Nurgle existing.)

Your position is NOT based on REALITY. It is based on your IGNORANCE.



argos_72 wrote:
Nelphine wrote:
nah the problem is that most of the details you've proposed, i disagree with. you specifically don't have an option for 'bb2020 got 90% of its changes right, but there are a few things that would be nice to clean up further'


i think the kick off table is already a point taken in consideration by G&W. I do not think tjhat a soft version of Blitz! or Perfect Defence or Pitch Invasion make sense. I would remove completely

But in my opinion the most important point is the 8 face dice.
I explain you why
imagine you've spent an enormous amount of time defending your advantage. i'm not just talking about punching, but a studied positional defense, maybe for 30 minutes. In the end your opponent, who throughout the match has tried to make impossible dodge or random things, decides in the last round 8 to go and get the ball that is sitting inside 3 tackle zone and make a long bomb. with the dice of six and the reroll if he has an AG5 he can try to make 5+ and 6+.
http://www.elyoukey.com/sac/
probability of success 14%.
that's a lot! It is as if in a football game dominated positionally by a team at the end you decide the game by rolling a 6 dice.
The dice of 8 would reduce the possibility for those who "play at random" to access impossible results.
For me the victory must be at 80% the prize of a studied game, prepared and the result of training.
Not by chance
With the current rules of BB2020 the random factor is still too high and one of the main reasons is the discourse that if you roll 6 whatever negative modifiers are applied to the roll you will ALWAYS get a good result.


So why this is wrong?
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 22:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
Footballs SLIP OUT OF THE HAND and go backwards all the time.


for up to 1D6??? cam'on even in the wonderwand country is crazy
you PASS the ball you do widely inaccurate and you LAUNCH the ball behind you by 6 squares? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Ok if we like Stan Laurel & Oliver Hardy's movies yes.
It is NOT necessary to add HUGE randomicity for crazy event. really not. I think the game will not lose anything of his fun if we ban totally crazy events
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 22:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
The luck you just described is already, with the rules of the game as is, so rare that it will NOT prevent rewarding coach skill and positioning more than 80% of the time.


In the principle you are right but is the absolute % in my opinion that is over estimated
Look the Win Rate percentage of the most powerfull legendary players in this site. They play BlackBox who contains 80% of average player or average/low quality player (like me Smile ) and they have no more than 70% win rate. And they do not play always each other!
It is sufficient to watch some match of these superior players to understand that whenever they draw or lose a match something catastrophic happen. And DOES NOT happen 5% of the time, happen 15-30% of the time.

A very skilled player should have in my opinion a win rate of 80-85% to be a "LEGEND". No any LEGEND player in fumbbl raise this level

a little bit. Not too much. just fine tuning.
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 22:16 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
As a counterpoint, it's nice to always have that option of the crazy play that could work on a 666.
Otherwise, the game can get choked out early by a superior player.
I don't like the randomness of player removal in those games where you're playing 7 v 11 before you've had a turn due to some "lucky" cas dice. All part of the game sadly.
I'd like to see something done with KO's where the first roll is at 4+, next roll at 3+, then 2+ thereafter to recover. Reduces the chances of being shorthanded through bad luck.
At the end of they day, it's all about dealing with the percentages as best you can


it is EXACTLY what i have proposed. Very good proposal: reduce the KO dices every drive from 4+, 3+ 2+
yes. yes and YES.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 22:32 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:

it is EXACTLY what i have proposed. Very good proposal: reduce the KO dices every drive from 4+, 3+ 2+
yes. yes and YES.

It is a nice idea and would work well in a computer game but seems convoluted for a tabletop game with tracking how many drives people have been out for.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 22:34 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:
Nelphine wrote:
The luck you just described is already, with the rules of the game as is, so rare that it will NOT prevent rewarding coach skill and positioning more than 80% of the time.


In the principle you are right but is the absolute % in my opinion that is over estimated
Look the Win Rate percentage of the most powerfull legendary players in this site. They play BlackBox who contains 80% of average player or average/low quality player (like me Smile ) and they have no more than 70% win rate. And they do not play always each other!
It is sufficient to watch some match of these superior players to understand that whenever they draw or lose a match something catastrophic happen. And DOES NOT happen 5% of the time, happen 15-30% of the time.

A very skilled player should have in my opinion a win rate of 80-85% to be a "LEGEND". No any LEGEND player in fumbbl raise this level

a little bit. Not too much. just fine tuning.


No. Then, the players who are 'average' would have no incentive to play. They know they would simply lose to these 'legend' players.

There is not enough BB players, let alone on this site, to be able to do that. We would need many times the size of our current player base to support that.

Additionally, legend is a title given to the top small percentage of players - it has nothing to do with their win rate. It means almost no one has a better win rate. Your proposal would do literally nothing to change who has the title.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 22:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
argos_72 wrote:

it is EXACTLY what i have proposed. Very good proposal: reduce the KO dices every drive from 4+, 3+ 2+

It is a nice idea and would work well in a computer game but seems convoluted for a tabletop game with tracking how many drives people have been out for.

It's easy, actually: miniature lying face down in KO box: 4+; lying face up in KO box: 3+; standing in KO box: 2+.

So, when a player is KO place him face down in the KO box, then, if he doesn't recover at end of drive, turn the miniature face up. Try again at end of next drive and, if the roll is failed again, stand the miniature up.


Last edited by MattDakka on Mar 07, 2021 - 22:59; edited 2 times in total
argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 22:57 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="Nelphine"

No. Then, the players who are 'average' would have no incentive to play. They know they would simply lose to these 'legend' players.

There is not enough BB players, let alone on this site, to be able to do that. We would need many times the size of our current player base to support that.

Additionally, legend is a title given to the top small percentage of players - it has nothing to do with their win rate. It means almost no one has a better win rate. Your proposal would do literally nothing to change who has the title.[/quote]

in Box you do not decide to whom to play. Because the Box contains all type of players and there are a lot of players of average CR. It is good place to make statistics.
Because there are not so many Legend players in the box it is interesting to see their win rate in general
I have wathched several matches played by legend players vs average players (to learn how to play) and i have realized that every time soem of these experienced players (who play veeeery veeeery well) lose or make a draw is because a crazy events happen.
When two players of the same level play it can be that randomicity is sometimes decide the game.
XpherAndTheAxes



Joined: Jun 20, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2021 - 23:04 Reply with quote Back to top

randomness is a pretty key point in a dice game, and it may be frustrating to be on the bad end of some dice, but it also can feel rewarding to be on the end of some nice dice.

i think you are being quite selective with some of your reviewing matches of legends vs regular coaches though, as more often than not the legend will win, and sometimes it is more about the teams in a matchup than the coaches involved.

i mean i dont know how many people i speak for, but if the game was less random and less "anything could happen" and less of the "fantasy, over the top craziness" that all GW games tend to be, then i would gladly move on to another game. i think that a degree of randomness and risk can make a game a lot more fun, and challenging to acknowledge the risks are there and try to plan ahead to work around them if they happen
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