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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 14, 2021 - 21:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Webbe wrote:

All players can reduce stats (twice each) for 10k each and as no player need PA and many players don't need other stats it's basically free price reduction. The wording for maximum price reduction is not crystal clear

I am not convince you can drop them by two either. the text says you can increase or decrease stats by 2 as follows. But there is only a price for reducing a stat by one. Some players have cost for increasing by two.

It is, sadly, badly written and not really worth debating. Hopefully the May FAQ update will sort it out.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 14, 2021 - 22:54 Reply with quote Back to top

The new merc rules do indeed look rather worrying, but it's not surprising following on from all the other problems. There's a definite trend here with lots of bewildering rules where the 'games designer' has obviously just thought 'wouldn't it be great if a player could do this?!', without actually bothering to think about what it will do to the overall game balance. At face value they may look fun, but actually they are very poorly designed for gameplay.

We've debated a lot of the other problems elsewhere, but the crowning turd in the drainpipe for me is Safe Pair of Hands. That is just utterly stupid. It's bad enough that they are nerfing leaping and break tackle which makes it much harder to get into tight cages, and also made passing even worse. But if a ballcarrier has Safe Pair of Hands, even if the defence do pull off the miraculous and actually spill the ball, it's just pointless anyway because the ballcarrier will dump it in at least two or three of his tackle zones, and there is no chance of it scattering into the crowd. Good luck getting that back from a bunch of dwarfs with guard, other big bash side, or well any team frankly as long as they have a fair few players left. So what are we left with? Very few turnovers, just big melees for bash sides, or agility sides being forced to play passive defence and continually dancing back I strongly suspect. Awful game design. If you could design just one skill to wreck game balance and diversity of tactics, Safe Pair of Hands would probably be it - sounds interesting fluffwise but utterly awful for the game. There MUST be realistic strategies for turning over the ball - breaking cages, or hell just blitzing around an undefended side. Without the realistic possibilty of dynamic defence and turnovers, I suspect the game will soon become rather boring sadly.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 15, 2021 - 02:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Probably the special merc rules will just be optional use in some leagues. Doesn't sound like something that will be wanted in the competitive open division. Inducements are optional for NAF resurrection tabletop tournaments (so the tournament director decides if they are available for their tournament).

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Last edited by garyt1 on Apr 15, 2021 - 02:28; edited 3 times in total
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 15, 2021 - 02:25 Reply with quote Back to top

I suppose the idea is to try to balance the fact that there will be few players in a team that play more than a couple of seasons. But you can get these mercenaries that are not as super pricey as full on stars.
If they are good enough that it is an advantage to be a lower TV team that would be an issue. Although arguably fast/agile teams have had that before with the Wizard.

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 15, 2021 - 03:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Most of those rules are callbacks to house rules from way back, like JJ's mailing list or something. They're fun stuff you can add to the game if you're looking for something new without them having to publish secret league and ten thousand new miniatures.

Plus taking the 7s game and pitch official, which is cool.

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DukeTyrion



Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 15, 2021 - 11:05 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
I like the ideas for different pitch / weather events. I always felt it could be fun for the "home" team to pick these sort of things to reflect their stadium.


I used to play in a league many years ago that used their own style pitches for home games.

I don't remember them all, but I recall we had;

- An Ice dwarf team, with +1 to injuries because of the pitch
- Slann, with -1 to injury, due to playing in a swamp
- Dark Elves caused +1 to all spells, due to the vortex

There were many others, but it certainly made it interesting when your team played at home
ThierryM



Joined: Mar 27, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 15, 2021 - 15:15 Reply with quote Back to top

All those rules that you forget Turn 3...

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 15, 2021 - 16:03 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
Plus taking the 7s game and pitch official, which is cool.

NAF already had both Sevens and Streetbowl tournaments from the last ruleset. Definitely good that Sevens is in Deathzone now. There was a guy in Calgary who was even making customs boards for these, mainly for tournaments, which are cool.

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Paranoidude



Joined: Apr 13, 2021

Post   Posted: Apr 15, 2021 - 18:23 Reply with quote Back to top

The fact that GW are even outright stating that 7s teams (for the most part) are completely viable at just one team box is really outstanding, if not out of character, for GW.
Azur



Joined: Nov 13, 2020

Post   Posted: Apr 15, 2021 - 19:51 Reply with quote Back to top

ThierryM wrote:
All those rules that you forget Turn 3...


Laughing
SO true.

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DonnyRainboe



Joined: Sep 13, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 15, 2021 - 20:00 Reply with quote Back to top

ThierryM wrote:
How to make a simple game more complicated.
Adding layers after layers of special rules brings nothing to the game but unbalancing things...

Keep BB simple !

It's was the best game to introduce someone to the Hobby (the parallel with US Football in a Fantasy setting was an easy concept to explain) and now it's getting overcomplicated...


I agree with this.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 16, 2021 - 00:38 Reply with quote Back to top

DonnyRainboe wrote:
ThierryM wrote:
How to make a simple game more complicated.
Adding layers after layers of special rules brings nothing to the game but unbalancing things...

Keep BB simple !

It's was the best game to introduce someone to the Hobby (the parallel with US Football in a Fantasy setting was an easy concept to explain) and now it's getting overcomplicated...


I agree with this.


We all do. But they're a miniatures and book company. With all their products they push a game to its limit until it breaks then release a new edition that streamlines things then the product bloats. Then a new edition and so on. Its not gonna change. And in 4 years time we will have a season 3 edition.

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King_Ghidra



Joined: Sep 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 16, 2021 - 15:00 Reply with quote Back to top

All of these new things are optional for your league environment. We had multiple spike's with new balls, pitches and inducements ever since 2016. Almost none of them made their way to fumbbl and i don't recall people whining about them breaking bloodbowl for the past five years either.

but whiners will whine and exaggerate as usual
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 16, 2021 - 16:02 Reply with quote Back to top

King_Ghidra wrote:
but whiners will whine and exaggerate as usual

I think it is less about whining and more about a change that could have been good once again having a poor implementation.

Most of what is here I like. Some cheaper mercs with a few skills options and secret weapons available for almost all.

The poorly written rules for cost reduction, an Elf than can buy AG 0+ and the while DP+2 everywhere are what I dislike.
Paranoidude



Joined: Apr 13, 2021

Post   Posted: Apr 16, 2021 - 16:25 Reply with quote Back to top

King_Ghidra wrote:
All of these new things are optional for your league environment. We had multiple spike's with new balls, pitches and inducements ever since 2016. Almost none of them made their way to fumbbl and i don't recall people whining about them breaking bloodbowl for the past five years either.


I think the difference is that Spikes are pretty easy to ignore and argue are "non-canon" or "non-core." Death Zone is a different beast because of the fact that a lot of newer players (specifically players brought in by the fantastic 7s supplement) will see this material as "necessary to buy/implement."

FUMBBL or not, I think people still trying to break into/regularly playing the game on tabletop can feel frustrated by added complexity heaped onto an edition many people are still trying to get a handle on.

That said, I love what I have seen of the stadia and balls. They add a fun, wacky element that (as stated before) will probably end up getting lost in the sauce of turn 3/half 1.
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