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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: May 30, 2021 - 05:44 Reply with quote Back to top

So, BB20 has, well, some pretty pants-on-head passing skills.

I like the idea of random skills, and I like a variety of each, they added a few good new skills (Defensive, Fumbblrooskie, Safe Pair of Hands), so I just thought, it seems easy enough to design for 60 decent skills, and share 'em around the groups, while respecting the history of the game.

Here's an alternate history attempt at BB20 skills.

Blue is unnerfed or boosted.
Red is mostly new, or moved.

Note; this assumes passing is generally 2+ base for throwers and elves with max improvement 1+, and blitzing works like it always has. Also, why not 0+ agility? Because throwing and catching skills can only matter if passing actually ever happens. Wild if less than 1. Anyway.

Agility Random for fastest players and catchers.
    Catch: it's not bad, if 2+ passing is normal, and happily catchers already have it.
    Defensive: this is a great new skill, guard-spam needed a counter for AG teams.
    Diving Catch: usable as a poor man's Nerves of Steel, and on Humans.
    Diving Tackle: great skill.
    Dodge: great skill.
    Jump Up: great skill.
    Leap: this didn't really need nerfed, just -1 to AG is fine, though Tails and DT working on it is OK.
    Pass Block: like the OtB version, any number of players, to anywhere. Plus can use skills.
    Side Step: great skill.
    Sneaky Git: the improvement is good, especially with the short bench early in seasons.
    Sprint: a fine skill on your fastest.
    Sure Feet: a fine skill on sprinters and treemen.


General Random for most everyone, unless slow.
    Block: a great skill.
    Dauntless: it's fine, but I'd add that it cancels Foul Appearance.
    Dirty Player: great skill, widely under-rated.
    Fend: a fair skill on some players, should really end movement on blitz, when it can be countered by Juggs.
    Frenzy: a great skill.
    Kick: a game-winning skill, massive.
    Pro: at 3+ and only one block die for pow fishing is great.
    Shadowing: like the new one, but 4+, then it's a good skill on very fast guys, and workable on most players.
    Strip Ball: excellent skill, love the game dynamics of it.
    Sure Hands: a great skill, fun how it cancels strip ball.
    Tackle: a great skill.
    Wrestle: a great skill.


Mutations Random are better on speed, ballers, or sackers.
    Big Hand: a great skill.
    Claw: don't really see it needed the nerf, C/MB is fine in BB16, with rebuy where you can't have a full team of it all the time.
    Disturbing Presense: Borderline, but in a game where passing works, pretty good to mess it up.
    Extra Arms: a great skill.
    Foul Appearance: I would amp this, it's a bit weak, 3+ and countered by Dauntless is, I think, a great skill.
    Horns: a great skill, excellent.
    Monstrous Mouth: just, like, no Apo/Regen on a blocking kill by this player, plus what it does.
    Prehensile Tail: it's still weak in BB20, cancels dodge for dodges would be a great boost.
    Tentacles: it's good in BB20, just adds doubt.
    Thick Skull: just add +1 AV, as well as the KO thing, max +2 and 11+.
    Two Heads: a great skill.
    Very Long Legs: just let it do +1 MA as well, max +2 and 9, then it's a great skill again.


Passing Random for throwers and dedicated ballers.
    Accurate: should work like always, +1 to all passing, then it's a great skill.
    Dump-Off: just fold in Running Pass, together they're OK, could ignore the blocking player's TZ too.
    Fan Favourite: +1 to BB20's Fan Factor for kick off events, when this player is on the pitch. Fair skill.
    Flea Flicker: player with this skill may make a Quick Pass when using the Hand Off action. Useful enough.
    Fumbblrooskie: a great skill.
    Hail Mary Pass: 2+ to scatter it, like always, is only OK then, even for bommas, fun but not great.
    Kick-off Return: a fine skill, no hobgoblins allowed.
    Leader: a great skill.
    Nerves of Steel: an OK skill.
    Pass: almost every thrower already has this, so, here it is.
    Safe Pair of Hands: a great skill, but for throwers!
    Safe Throw: just like the old one, not split, it's fine. Making it cancel intercepts only on Long Pass/Long Bomb is fair.


Strength Random for big guys, hitters, dorfs.
    Arm Bar: I'm pretty sure this could be +2 and be fine.
    Brawler: not on a blitz, but this should cancel Wrestle and Block for both players on your turn. Also turn Skulls into BDs.
    Break Tackle: just give a 2+ dodge 1/turn, unless marked by a stronger player. Great skill then.
    Grab: a great skill.
    Guard: a great skill.
    Juggernaught: a great skill.
    Mighty Blow: a great skill.
    Multiple Block: I like the -2 ST version, needs to say "you can still make the 2nd block even if the 1st one ends your turn."
    Pile Driver: so anyway, PDDP is fun, a no-action foul plus sent off on injury doubles only is weak, but fun.
    Stable Footing: So when you fail a dodge, stay standing, and end your action. Great skill. Cancelled by Diving Tackle.
    Stand Firm: a great skill.
    Strong Arm: +1 to TTM, and +1 to Long Pass/Long Bomb passing actions, obviously.


Essentially adding a few old things back to the game, and some tweaks that mean players can take randoms if they're the right type of player, and have it usually work. Removed or folded in some terrible BB20 skills.

--

Like, that feels like where BB20 was aiming at, where you'd get a weird mix of skills on a few low-skill players, plus the key skills you needed to compete where you wanted them on those hauling in the SPP, and recycle them semi-regularly to stop it getting bloaty or spammy.

Like, players should be worth carrying to the end of season at least, and often worth piling on spp to build on the potential.

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neuro_



Joined: Aug 15, 2020

Post   Posted: May 30, 2021 - 13:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I like these changes as a whole, but a few seem a bit off- like SPoH, which is still awful, and Brawler can't be allowed to turn skulls into BD- that removes any and all risk to blocking. If FA went to 3+ then nurgle would have to have less of it to begin with. As a quick evaluation though these ideas sound great, ill probably be houseruling them myself.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: May 30, 2021 - 23:59 Reply with quote Back to top

How about Iron Hard Skin countering all modifiers on AV rolls, not just Claw? Then you'd have a way to protect against chainsaws

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BlockBadger



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: May 31, 2021 - 01:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I really like the idea of doing this...
I've already worked a bunch of changed I would make, and I do like a few takes you have made, (like shadowing).
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: May 31, 2021 - 06:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Stable Footing is what Stand Firm was in LRB3 from memory
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: May 31, 2021 - 07:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Yar, Stable Footing is the other half of old Stand Firm, good fun on treemen, just put them in the cage. Nice disruptive skill. I think it's too good as part of Stand Firm, but split works OK.

--

The idea with Brawler change, is, removing block and wrestle, so like tackle removes dodge, but removed on the blocking player too. Then, when they turn skulls into BDs, it's still a turnover, they just smash the other guy too.

Then it's, well, 1/9 fail still for bigs, but, you can ignore Block and Wrestle while you're doing it. And for hitters who end up with it, as an option, they can block last and hit soft targets with block or wrestle, or just some reward for rolling dub skulls, that both players go down and the turn still ends.

It's not great at that, really, but seems fun on big guys trying to hit folks. If you like, anything that strips skills from other teams inherently helps ogres/gobs/flings/snots, because they're just better vs rookie teams.

--

I sort of like SPoH and sort of don't, it's got potential as a hard stall skill, where you just don't care if they make the dodge in, because the ball will be even more 6+ to get to and pick up. Ideally it never comes up, but probably a few times a season you'd use it and appreciate it being there. Especially near the sideline if you really can't allow the ball to go out, so lets you play tighter corner stalls and such, especially vs Leap.

But yeah, 12 thrower skills is the hardest. They're still the weakest in my set.

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Grasshugger17



Joined: Jun 29, 2020

Post   Posted: May 31, 2021 - 08:32 Reply with quote Back to top

neuro_ wrote:
Brawler can't be allowed to turn skulls into BD- that removes any and all risk to blocking.


Not if it cancels wrestle and block for both players. On a skull both players would go down.
MarckusOfCamlan



Joined: Jul 20, 2017

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 17:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I believe the Block skill shall be split in 2 : It's the skill everyone wants for almost all their players : that says a lot.


The split :
Offensive Block = Both down don't make your player fall when you are performing a block or a blitz
Defensive Block = Both down don't make your player fall when a block or a blitz is performed versus him
MarckusOfCamlan



Joined: Jul 20, 2017

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 17:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Grasshugger17 wrote:
neuro_ wrote:
Brawler can't be allowed to turn skulls into BD- that removes any and all risk to blocking.


Not if it cancels wrestle and block for both players. On a skull both players would go down.


If I remember correctly, no skill is mandatory. Therefore a player can choose not to use a skill.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 17:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Frenzy is mandatory, for the record.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 17:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Shadowing at 4+ would be off the chain, with the new Assassins and all: putting it on one die makes it really clumsy to manipulate. Can we go to 5+?

I generally think it's good to have a couple sucky skills in each category. Passing skills are awful, yes, and could use a little rework, but if you don't get a little tingle in your gut when you click on that random skill, that's not good design. Also some skills suck in general but are actually okay on some players, and it's kinda cool when the chips fall that way.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 18:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Getting a sucky skill is bad because it wastes a skill slot.
It would be better to get no skill and waste the SPPs but not the skill slot, still a gamble but at least the build would not be ruined.
Also, the team with cheap Linemen (which are often bash teams) can afford to cycle Linemen, while the agile teams with expensive Linemen can't do the same.
Elven Linemen are almost as expensive as positionals. You can't afford to randomize a skill, getting a sucky one such as Shadowing on a 70k Linelf.
It would be acceptable only if Elves swam in gold, which is not what usually happens.
I tried the random skill approach on Linelves, it didn't work.
It's better just to have a single good skill (namely either Block or Wrestle) spread on every Linelf than many random sucky skills not having a real impact on games, apart from bloating the TV.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 19:06 Reply with quote Back to top

You need some crap skills in there or taking a random has little to no risk.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 19:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Wasting SPPs is an adequate risk in my opinion.
On the other hand, crap skills which will not be used are useless. Having them or a void result would be the same. A skill is something you should use, otherwise is not a skill (therefore a logical contradiction), but a TV bloat/negatrait. Razz
Shadowing which doesn't shadow is ridiculous, it would be useful on MA 9 players, but MA 9 players are positionals, and they are not going to take random G skills. From the logical perspective is terrible.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

The new rules pretty much demand that elf teams be built on 950k, and you're kicking yourself in the shorts without enough rerolls. There's just enough money on High and Dark Elves to run the 10-lino/1-blitzer roster with 3 RR and 6 DF. This build is attrition-dependent. If you're doing a good job of not getting hurt, you need some excuse to jettison linemen once you can buy a bunch of positionals. Random skills, and thus saved TV, are a great way to do that. Sometimes you'll get a good skill and make your team way more than 10k TV better, and sometimes you'll get a new Catcher to replace that Lineman. In this edition, every single gold piece of TV matters, but winnings are cheap.

I usually only take one random as a first skill unless the first one was marginal, taking a G skill on 3-5 SPP and a S skill on 6+. It makes it a whole lot easier on your redraft, as reduced skill cost makes it possible to redraft more and better players.

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