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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 01:13 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem is having randomized the skill.
I would not take a random skill, so I would not have a Frenzy player.
Simple like that. I don't create the problem, thus I don't have to solve it. It's logic.
If I had a Frenzy ST 2 Catcher I would fire him, but, to answer, I would take either Block or Wrestle on him, not Dauntless. I guess Wrestle to improve sacking odds with Frenzy. Moreover, either Block and Wrestle add protection (synergy with Dodge, which is a "hidden value").


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 20, 2021 - 01:16; edited 1 time in total
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 01:15 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The problem is having randomized the skill.
I would not take a random skill, so I would not have a Frenzy player.
Simple like that. I don't create the problem, thus I don't have to solve it. It's logic.
If I had a Frenzy ST 2 Catcher I would fire him, but, to answer, I would take either Block or Wrestle on him. I guess Wrestle to improve sacking odds with Frenzy.


But statistically speaking, you are wrong. Can you please explain how legends are able to bend unfavorable probabilities in their favor?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 01:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Wrestle can wrestle down a Block player, while Block can't.
Therefore Wrestle has better odds to sack than Block, this is why I suggested Wrestle over Block.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 01:25 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Moreover, either Block and Wrestle add protection (synergy with Dodge, which is a "hidden value").


Moving the goalposts I see. Certainly true. But you originally said it was stupid to add dauntless because it would produce TO, and statistically speaking dauntless is less likely to cause a TO if you have 1 assist. Sorry, your goalpost moving is not legendary, you were still wrong.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 01:26 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Wrestle can wrestle down a Block player, while Block can't.
Therefore Wrestle has better odds to sack than Block, this is why I suggested Wrestle over Block.


Which is why I assumed a blockless target for the odds I calculated. The odds still say dauntless is better if you get an assist. And the knockdown odds are better with dauntless even without an assist.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 12:43 Reply with quote Back to top

I didn't move the goalpost. Let's consider the Dauntless, Frenzy sacking odds vs a ST 3 player without Block:

with 1 assist, ST 2 and Dauntless you need first to roll a 2+ to get to ST 3, then you roll the 2d block, valid results both down, push/pow, pow:

88.54% (with possible TO due to Both Down).
74.58% (no TO discarding Both Down).

With Wrestle and Frenzy + 1 assist vs the same ST 3 player, 1d block, valid results both down, push/pow, pow:

75% (but no TO because you can take Both Down, that's the big difference)
Without TO you have more chances to retrieve the ball, because you can still move other players and try to pick it up.
You should consider that too.
Also, Wrestle protects the Catcher and that means that he will more likely survive to do something (the longer a player stays on the pitch, the higher the chance that his TV will have an effect on the game).
Without Wrestle a Catcher is more easily removed.
Also, I never said that I meant (or you had) to build a dedicated sacker Catcher.
When I suggested Wrestle I considered the best skill pick overall for that player. To have protection AND to be a good sacker (synergy with Frenzy) AND to reduce turnovers Wrestle is better.
Is it clearer now?

That was what I wrote on page 5: "
And you have turnovers assured and still a not reliable Catcher with 3+ Catch.

First skill is either Block or Wrestle (even Diving Catch could be ok for those 2-turn drives), be it random or chosen, but, if your purpose is making a turnover machine, then it's a nice build. "

I never said that I wanted to make a dedicated sacker Catcher by taking Wrestle (or Block).

Instead, you wrote this on page 6: "
A MA8 frenzy piece isn’t for blocking with every turn, it is to shut out the sidelines out of fear of a crowd surf. "

Then you shifted the goalpost from "crowd surfer Catcher" to "sweeper Catcher" on page 7: "For a sweeper, I would always favor knockdown percentage, and I would also assume getting an assist. "

Then you asked this on page 8: "
The question isn't whether you should take block for folks that are going to block. Obviously you should. The question is, if stuck with Frenzy on a St2 piece, do you go for dauntless or block next?"

And I replied to your last question with Block/Wrestle.
You shifted the goalpost from my reply adding the "sacking goal" to the debate because I said that, between Block and Wrestle, I'd take the latter to improve the sacking odds in synergy with Frenzy and to have protection as well (so, 2 purposes).
If you want to build a dedicated player it's almost obvious that is better to pick the skills rather than randomizing them and then trying to pigeonhole him into a specific role.

So, to summarize:

- Do I want to build a specific player to perform a specific role?
If yes: I pick (not random) the best skills for that role.
Wrestle, Dauntless, Frenzy if the role is sacker/sweeper Catcher.

If no, and I already randomized a skill:
What is the best skill I can take to complement the skill I randomized?
In the Frenzy Catcher case: Wrestle.
Protection, blocking reliability and sacking chance improvement with 1 skill.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 18:20 Reply with quote Back to top

For anyone interested in statistics and not the rambling word salad of a legend, here they are.

Comparing the turnover (TO) and knockdown (KD) rates of a frenzy/wrestle vs frenzy/dauntless st2 piece (target st 3 block but no dodge)

No assists on either block:
Wrestle: 44.14% TO / 36.11% KD
Dauntless: 49.38% TO / 39.31% KD

Assist on first block but not second:
Wrestle: 26.85% TO / 58.33% KD
Dauntless: 27.16% TO / 61.73% KD

Assist on both blocks:
Wrestle: 22.22% TO / 66.67% KD
Dauntless: 19.75% TO / 69.14% KD

Without assists the dauntless KD and TO rates are higher. With assist on the first block it is pretty much a mixed bag. With assists on both blocks the dauntless has a lower TO rate and a higher KD rate. Unless you enjoy unassisted blocking with frenzy pieces out of habit, dauntless stands up as a slightly better choice, purely based on the blocking statistics. Dauntless does not turn them into a "turn over machine", and wrestle does not stop them from becoming a "turn over machine". They are both reasonably reliable options with an assist. I would also add that while not modeled here, the ability to crowd surf is enhanced by dauntless when assisted, as you get to choose when to push more often.

Obviously the defensive aspects of wrestle/block turns them into a more helpful skill choice.

I can't believe I wasted 20 minutes proving a legend wrong on such a niche topic... Embarassed
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 19:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Reading failure, I wrote: "didn't move the goalpost. Let's consider the Dauntless, Frenzy sacking odds vs a ST 3 player without Block: "

WITHOUT BLOCK. You made the calculation with Block on the ST 3 defender.
No wonder the odds change.
At this stage I think you are trolling for real.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 19:21 Reply with quote Back to top

what legend are we talking about again

currently this page only has posts from lowly stars and super stars
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

At least I never concede: https://fumbbl.com/p/matches?c=Java&coach2=MattDakka
looks like a lowly Super Star is better than you, according to this match record.
I can mock you too, see?
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 19:55 Reply with quote Back to top

a concession is better than wasting time with somebody so deluded Smile

in that last match, I do remember you whining like a baby when you snaked a pickup after getting sacked like a noob in H1, then recovering out of pure luck, then celebrating the death of my gutter runner like the example of sportsmanship you are, and being absolutely unbearable afterwards

look, I'm not the only one that would rather concede than play you
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4323478

to think I even defended you and your outlook to the game, before realising what a blight on this comunity you truly are

feel free to bring me up in chat with any italian you play, bang on about my underworld teams, that's totally sane

go sit on the artichokes please ^^
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 20:06 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Reading failure, I wrote: "didn't move the goalpost. Let's consider the Dauntless, Frenzy sacking odds vs a ST 3 player without Block: "

WITHOUT BLOCK. You made the calculation with Block on the ST 3 defender.
No wonder the odds change.
At this stage I think you are trolling for real.


You do realize that adding block to the defender makes the dauntless odds WORSE, right? Right??

Oh you didn't. How embarrassing for you.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 20:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Not to mention I didn't create multiple UW teams to exploit the roster change.
It sounds funny listening people playing illegal UW rosters talking about "sportsmanship".
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 20:14 Reply with quote Back to top

it's an obsession LOL

it's like talking to Pointland

there's no getting through

of course if one makes up his own rules of conduct, one is the best and always right

well, enjoy, "legend"
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2021 - 20:42 Reply with quote Back to top

You know it ain't easy
You got to hold on
He was an unknown legend in his time
There ain't no debating
grinding up the coach rating
He gets the far-away look in his eyes
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