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Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: May 15, 2021 - 13:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Thing is, these skills have a lot of utility.

Block is good when rolling Both Down on offense and defense. It turns a turnover into a success (if enemy doesn't have Block or Wrestle) or it prevents a turnover (if enemy has Block or Wrestle).

Dodge is good for keeping you on your feet and it helps you make that dodge if you happen to roll a 1.

Pro helps you re-roll an undesirable result (such as Animal Savagery. Or anything else).

All of them save your re-rolls. And you want to save re-rolls, because it leaves you with more options later on. Especially now, when you can use re-rolls without "one team re-roll per turn" rule.

Stat increases, while nice, don't offer that kind of benefit.

Don't get me wrong, having ST5/AG5/PA2 is great and all, but you have to "save SPP" until that happens. Meaning it does nothing for you in the meantime (as opposed to picking skills such as Block, Dodge and Pro one after another). And even then, the stats alone will still require a re-roll. In an environment where EVERYTHING requires a re-roll. And in case of Vampires, doubly so.

It would help if the increments for picking secondary skills and randomized stats were less severe. And if the stats increase wouldn't have a fixed TV (having ST5 is going to cost you a lot more in TV than picking Block AND Dodge, for example).

Technically keeping your TV low could have some benefits (and it's easier to re-draft such a player), but I am not sure if the opportunity cost would be worth it. I mean, how many games will you win, how many touchdowns will you score with "naked" Vampires over Vampires who keep getting Dodge, Block and Pro? Evenmoreso if you employ this kind of leveling strategy en masse?
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: May 15, 2021 - 15:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I like the idea of parking 3 Skill Vampires and then carrying them over into the next season with a pile of SPP to spend.

Taking an imaginary team what might it look like after half a dozen seasons? We get a nice core at 1200 TV. We can carry over three decent Vampires and hire a bunch of new Thralls and a rookie Vampire.

280 7 Thralls
110 1 Vampire Rookie
140 TRR x2

330 Three Skilled Vamps
200 Total 10 skills
140 Total 7 Season (3,2,2)
TOTAL = 1200k

That leaves us an extra 100k, 150k on FUMBLE, for other skills, an extra TRR if needed or even carry a Vamp into a fourth season.

_________________
Nuffle wills it.

Lyracian.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 15, 2021 - 15:50 Reply with quote Back to top

So, for a roster which could have up to 6 Vampires the best scenario is playing with 3 so-so skilled Vampires and 1 Rookie Vampire?
Playing Vampires with BB2020 rules really looks appealing!
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: May 15, 2021 - 16:35 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
So, for a roster which could have up to 6 Vampires the best scenario is playing with 3 so-so skilled Vampires and 1 Rookie Vampire?
Playing Vampires with BB2020 rules really looks appealing!

I think that is sarcasm?

At 1350 you could squeeze in a fourth skilled Vamp but that is the best I could see for an ongoing team.

Will need some big changes to the roster to make me want to play them in 2020 League.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 15, 2021 - 16:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, that post was sarcastic.

I loved to watch this Vampire team:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=751375
but sadly BB2020 rules will trim it.
(this is not sarcastic).
In my opinion the fun of playing Vampires is developing some very good ones, and being able to play at least 5 of them (not on starting roster, I mean, over time).
It should be a "few hero players" roster in my opinion rewarding long-term development (because early it's hard to play and not super good), not a rinse&repeat roster with 3-4 not very special Vampires.
I wonder whether giving Pro as default skill to new Vampires roster (increasing their cost to 120k) would have been too good.
Since they are not going to be played for a lot of games they should have had at least a starting skill, and Pro could have been a good idea.
Not overpowered, but a bit better and more fun to play.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: May 15, 2021 - 18:17 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

I loved to watch this Vampire team:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=751375
but sadly BB2020 rules will trim it.

They are not going to enjoy shaving a million gold off of team value to play under the new rules.

MattDakka wrote:

I wonder whether giving Pro as default skill to new Vampires roster (increasing their cost to 120k) would have been too good. Not overpowered, but a bit better and more fun to play.

I am expecting something more like the Ogres or Halfing where we get the 6 Vampires split into 2 Vampire Blcokers, 2 Vampire Runners, or similar. Do not think we will see Pro but some sort of skill yes.
gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: May 16, 2021 - 00:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe the real question is whether more team rerolls vs. skills that have built in rerolls, is better for the team?

Realistically.. you don't actually block that many times per turn, you don't get blocked that many times a turn, you don't pass and/or hand off that many times a game, etc..
Having block and needing tackle are pretty basic things you need in your team design ..how much of each depends on your coaching ability
Like, everyone else is going to be scrambling to put together a squad that can function at 1350'ish when redraft happens
Vampires carry more team rerolls than most teams normally do, even though they're 70K a pop so they might already be ahead of the curve absorbing that TV sink

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cromag



Joined: Jan 21, 2021

Post   Posted: May 17, 2021 - 00:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I have been playing vampires in BB2020 now 15~ games under my belt, while I stand by a lot of what I've said, I've had 2 Vampire deaths and 6 thrall deaths in that time. I think running 3-4 vamps for league play is better, I started with 5 Vamps, 7 Thralls 2rr I've never not had journeymen.

They are definitely better than what they used to be but the cost of replacing your players constantly has been rather taxing. I believe if it was more your local meta to have a lot of elf or human teams it would be better with fewer deaths. My league has Chaos, Nurgle, Dark Elves, Orcs, Necromantic, Shambling undead, Underworld denizens, Dwarfs, Skaven, Imperial nobility, and Lizardmen. I've had a lot of games where I've been under 5 players on the field or I've been left with the 4 vampires on my roster and nothing else 3 turns into the second half.

It has been a pretty rough time, I think I'll play goblins next time at least that way I deserve the beating i'm getting.

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Always be blocking / Never ever trust your dice / Fear is the killer.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2021 - 19:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
I would go 6 vamps, keeping in mind that you can position them so they just bone-head instead of hitting your other players when they fail their Savagery roll. Also, they can attack each other, so you don't have to worry about running out of Thrall. First skill - Pro on every vampire?


I was leading the debate in favor of how great Pro was fir certain players long before it was 3+.
When Pro was only 4+ I had pointed out that taking Pro was like getting 1/2 of Pass, Catch, Sure Feet, Dodge (-the block dice benefits), Sure Hands (-the Strip Ball benefits) and any other Reroll Skills,

Plus the chance to fight off Nega-traits and aiding in longer strings of dice rolling than usual and actions made without the safety net of Team Rerolls or to conserve Team Rerolls in instance where failure was not going to be too critical.

Pro is an awesome skill that is only made better when it WORKS now 2/3 of the time instead of 1/2 of the time. You might say it has now joined the list of OP Skills (OK not really... just joking there).

Sure... it isn't better than many other skills when placed on the right players. And there are certainly many types of players that should NEVER get Pro.

And Sure... it isn't a skill that should be Spammed to the entire roster like Block or Guard or Dodge is on certain rosters (although maybe all 6 Vamps IF AFTER you have developed most of them to fill other needed roles on the team).

But... on the right 1 to 4 players (depending on which Roster you are playing) Pro can be a GAME CHANGER and a GAME WIINNER. Worth as much or more as having Leap, Frenzy, Strip Ball, Diving Tackle and many other situational skills that can WIN a game if used correctly.

How often can a Game be Turned on a single Blitz of Leap, Block, Pick Up or Catch, Dodge then GFI GFI for a Touchdown?

You can have Leap, Block or Wrestle, Sure Hands or Catch, Dodge and Sure Feet and a Team Reroll.... OR you can just have Leap, Wrestle and Pro and a Team Reroll to do the same thing with a 3 Skill Player vs a 5 Skill Player.
And you don't have to worry about if you chose well between Sure Hands and Catch for which type of roll you must make to secure the ball.

With Pro... you have a bit of ALL the skills.
With Pro and a Team Reroll it doesn't matter which 2 rolls you FAIL... you came prepared for BOTH of them.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2021 - 00:13 Reply with quote Back to top

rangey wrote:
Hello all you keyboard warriors!

To those of you who have tried vampires under BB2020: I value your input.

To all the rest of you who have dribbled your opinions onto the webz: please, for the love of Pete, go and try them BEFORE you spout.

Vampires suck. Literally and figuratively - pun intended.
They suck diseased camel's wang at best.

Animal Savagery could not imho ever have been playtested by anyone for more than say, 10 seconds. It has nerfed any piece with AS into last week. The fear of placing an AS player anywhere near another team-mate now makes a vamp cage untenable.

The damage caused (yes, the victim has to be standing) to your own team is slightly less than before (armour then injury vs straight-to-injury) but the loss of TZ AS WELL if there's no-one near? Please.

Vamps were bad enough before, they are in their own special tier now. Round about Tier 28.

And yes, this from someone who HAS played them both before and after BB2020.

Happy day.


Why would you CAGE with a team that is not meant to CAGE? At least not often. Perhaps they can CAGE in certain moments but Vampire need to SCREEN and SWITCH FIELDS and SPREAD OUT and use INFILADE and DEFILADE tactics 90% of the time.
No wonder you think Vamps suck. Rolling Eyes
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 19:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Played my first game with Vamps. I like the new AS skill. Vamps are now even more technical. I love the ability to not lose vamps due to failed rolls if you don't want to bother with hitting a teammate. Cool maneuvers like moving a vamp in for the gaze next to another vamp, and then with his job done allow the other vamp to feed on him to get his action off. Feed on an adjacent thrall, and if the AV doesn't break stand him up and move him next to another one. The AS seems really limiting but there are so many more options for dealing with that limitation.

My one big takeaway is that I want to avoid downed vamps as much as possible. A 4+ just to stand up sucks, a lot.
flashman1234



Joined: May 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 20:56 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd love a different Negatrait to bonehead. It doesn't fit.

I'd call it 'Savage', where if any player, friend or foe, comes into contact with that player, they try and bite them. That way they cause problems for both teams.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 22:32 Reply with quote Back to top

I've got an idea. It is a trait called "Off for a bite." On a roll of a 1 the player leaves the field to find lunch if it is not provided by a team mate on the field.

......oh yeah. That has been done.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 14, 2021 - 18:19 Reply with quote Back to top

rangey wrote:
Hello all you keyboard warriors!

To those of you who have tried vampires under BB2020: I value your input.

To all the rest of you who have dribbled your opinions onto the webz: please, for the love of Pete, go and try them BEFORE you spout.


Strider did a couple of really nice wins with them at rookie levels
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&showmatches=1&team_id=1041427

I haven't given up on them yet. Although without those superb victories against tier 1 opponents.

Maybe it's not as clear cut as you put it.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2022 - 00:31 Reply with quote Back to top

After giving Vamps a go I find the talk of them sucking in BB2020 a bit crazy. New AS is far better than OFAB. You can realistically field 6 vamps when failing the roll doesn't mean a lost vamp and a TO. If you treat new Vamps like old Vamps and constantly feed them those 4+ move rolls will eat you up. Instead, you need to look at those 6 Vamps as a revolver. You have 6 bullets. If one misfires you just keep pulling the trigger. Ideally you will need 2 or 3 gaze rolls plus the blitzer to work, meaning out of 6 vamps you have 5 chances to roll your 4+ move/gaze rolls and then you need to hit your 2+ for the blitz. It makes sense to feed that blitzer a thrall in case that 2+ fails if your blitz is well set up. Chaining together vamp moves seems like a better play than using thralls as sacrifices, as you can usually gaze free a Vamp and then bite him if you fail the roll with AV8 and regen to back you up.

I am developing mine with Pro but I think that was not the right way to go. 6 Vamps with Pro is 120 TV. Would I rather have Pro or 2 extra RR? I just don't think that Pro is TV efficient at scale. Starting off blodge with an extra RR or two seems like a better play. The real key is to keep the Vamps on the field and blodge will do that much better than Pro. Long term development, assuming redraft never happens I would just save for +AV. +AV is great on Vamps, so you can bite each other and not get hurt, and just stick around better in general. If redraft is looming then maybe Pro for the third skill, but SS may be even better for keeping your Vamp out of the middle of a scrum.
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