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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 22:50 Reply with quote Back to top

If the prayers are not going to make up the difference then that's a sign of crap rules IMO.

If a coach is already salty from not liking the rules, getting "scummed" is only gonna make then saltier.

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MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2021 - 23:52 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
If the prayers are not going to make up the difference then that's a sign of crap rules IMO.

If a coach is already salty from not liking the rules, getting "scummed" is only gonna make then saltier.


Are you "scummed" in a league setting, or are you mainly referring to the open format?

I never particularly liked the idea that the team that bought a wizard was essentially buying one for the other team as well, even if it was technically balanced.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 00:05 Reply with quote Back to top

RedFish wrote:
koadah wrote:
If the prayers are not going to make up the difference then that's a sign of crap rules IMO.

If a coach is already salty from not liking the rules, getting "scummed" is only gonna make then saltier.


Are you "scummed" in a league setting, or are you mainly referring to the open format?

I never particularly liked the idea that the team that bought a wizard was essentially buying one for the other team as well, even if it was technically balanced.


If you are buying the wizard or star out of inducements then you are not buying the other team one.

If you already have the advantage and are wiping out your opponent's chance of evening things a little then yes, I'd call that scummed.

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MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 00:32 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:


If you are buying the wizard or star out of inducements then you are not buying the other team one.

If you already have the advantage and are wiping out your opponent's chance of evening things a little then yes, I'd call that scummed.


I don't consider inducement spending "buying", so I was mainly reffering to the spending of treasury.

I don't think it's as clear cut in a tournament or a league, that whoever has the higher TV should give up any advantage they have. With how inducements look like right now, the underdog could even have an advantage.

From a pure flavour perspective, I like the idea that rich, underhanded teams hire stars or wizards to cement their position in a tournament or a league.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 00:59 Reply with quote Back to top

A thing that bothers me a bit is when a team with several loners and crippled players, instead of buying players to replace the loners and the crippled players up to 11, saves the money to overdog instead.
After all, there is a site rule against that:
"Teams in competitive divisions are expected to strive for at least 11 players on the roster. While this doesn't mean that any team below 11 players must immediately hire a new lineman, coaches are expected to not let the team deteriorate on purpose."
It would be nice to encourage people to have a roster of 11 players before being allowed to overdog.


Last edited by MattDakka on Oct 19, 2021 - 01:02; edited 1 time in total
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 01:02 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
A thing that bothers me a bit is that a team with several loners instead of buying players up to 11 to replace the loners saves the money to overdog.
After all, there is a site rule against that:
"Teams in competitive divisions are expected to strive for at least 11 players on the roster. While this doesn't mean that any team below 11 players must immediately hire a new lineman, coaches are expected to not let the team deteriorate on purpose."


I've always interpreted that rule to be there to not deliberately make your team less-competitive. I don't think it's likely to apply for someone trying to make themselves *more* competitive. You'd probably need something extreme like tanking your team and chances of winning for a while in order to be the overdog in 1-2 matches.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 01:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally I think that free Loners were given to teams to have a full roster when they are unable to replace the lost players (especially if they are expensive), but if they have lots of gold (200k or more, for example) they should first replace them up to 11.
Letting deteriorate a team is within the BB rules but it seems to be against the spirit of the Loner rule.


Last edited by MattDakka on Oct 19, 2021 - 01:10; edited 1 time in total
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 01:10 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
A thing that bothers me a bit is when a team with several loners and crippled players, instead of buying players to replace the loners and the crippled players up to 11, saves the money to overdog instead.
After all, there is a site rule against that:
"Teams in competitive divisions are expected to strive for at least 11 players on the roster. While this doesn't mean that any team below 11 players must immediately hire a new lineman, coaches are expected to not let the team deteriorate on purpose."
It would be nice to encourage people to have a roster of 11 players before being allowed to overdog.


I assumed that the journeymen come with Loner is already the basic encouragement. But journeymen add to TV anyway as much as linemen.

I have a question. How does BB20/FUMBBL handle two teams hiring the same star player? Both teams don't get the player? Here I would see indeed a dilemma situation if the overdogs can prevent a strong inducement for the underdog. But long term this would still mean a huge investment by the favorite.

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MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 01:11 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Personally I think that free Loners were given to teams to have a full roster when they are unable to replace the lost players (especially if they are expensive), but if they have lots of gold (200k or so, for example) they should first replace them up to 11.
Letting deteriorate a team is within the BB rules but it seems to be against the spirit of the Loner rule.


Eh. I largely think people should be encouraged to spend their money in the manner that best secures the success of a team. If that leads to an overall less fun experience (and I guess I largely mean for league/tournament format, as an open division has always been warping of the game as intended), then an argument could be made to adress the rules.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 01:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, that's another valid view. I quoted the site rule to show that, apparently, teams are supposed to keep their teams in decent shape in the competitive division.
It doesn't make sense that a team with some loner/crippled players spends 200k or more in inducements, at that point you are not playing a race, you are playing a Loner team + Morg, Wizard,... (insert your favourite inducement here).


Last edited by MattDakka on Oct 19, 2021 - 01:23; edited 3 times in total
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 01:21 Reply with quote Back to top

mekutata wrote:


I have a question. How does BB20/FUMBBL handle two teams hiring the same star player? Both teams don't get the player? Here I would see indeed a dilemma situation if the overdogs can prevent a strong inducement for the underdog. But long term this would still mean a huge investment by the favorite.


I guess it should default to league rules rather than exhibition play? In which case neither side gets to field the star.

This is an assumption, of course, but one that would be in line with old rules.
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 01:23 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Yes, that's another valid view. I quoted the site rule to show that, apparently, teams are supposed to keep their teams in decent shape on this site.
It doesn't make sense that a team with some loner/crippled players spends in inducements, at that point you are not playing a race, you are playing a Loner team + Morg, Wizard,... (insert your favourite inducement here).


This does seem to be very much of an issue of star player pricing being completely off in BB2020, currently.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 01:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, for example Morg seems to be too cheap now.
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2021 - 01:29 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Yes, for example Morg seems to be too cheap now.


Another example is something like Hakflem who, as a normal Gutter Runner, would cost close to 250k but instead costs 180.
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Oct 24, 2021 - 04:39 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
It doesn't make sense that a team with some loner/crippled players spends 200k or more in inducements, at that point you are not playing a race, you are playing a Loner team + Morg, Wizard,... (insert your favourite inducement here).

Wouldn't you be shooting yourself in the foot that way though?

Loners discourage using re-rolls and they lack extra skills, while costing you as much TV as the regular ones, so you aren't really getting any advantage here.

In addition, you will be spending a lot of treasure money for inducements, which you won't be able to get back in full (assuming we're talking about spending 200k or more).

Lastly, you still want re-rolls and positionals. Unless your positionals have built-in re-rolls (Humans come to mind), in which case you may be encouraged to skill on re-rolls entirely (since most of your team will have a Loner skill and the rest will have built-in safeties).

For me missing on the SPP alone (from MVP and inflicting injuries) is a major reason to not consider making a "Loner Team", but for some teams it is even more true (imagine playing Chaos without Block on all of your linemen).
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