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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 23, 2021 - 18:22 Reply with quote Back to top

@Catalyst, the easy answer to why Argos has a better win rate in Competitive than in Box is that Box is where Argos learned to play, and his Box record includes his entire learning curve. However, all of the games he's played in Competitive have been in the last six weeks, and those games reflect his current skill level only. He's played enough C games that luck shouldn't be able to count for much, a few percent maybe. But his skill level is much higher now than it was a year ago, when he hit his nadir and then started playing lots of games in a hurry, and that's why his Box win % is a lot lower than his C win %, and also why his Box CR is higher than the win % indicates (CR is form, w% is history).

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Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 23, 2021 - 21:00 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Could it be left to die peacefully in its sleep?

You haven't played a Ranked game since 2018. Does this make you complicit in murder?

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Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 23, 2021 - 21:41 Reply with quote Back to top

argos_72 wrote:


There is one thing I am firmly convinced of: that one Coach to keep his status as Legend, Superstar or whatever MUST play a minimum of RANKED games per year.

I find it "strange" to see some coaches who are TOP 1 in the coach ranking that has not been playing anymore games in Box, Competitive or Ranked since maybe one or two years but only friendly leagues and they still sit in the top 10 position.

This I think "pollutes" a little bit the general ranking. don't you think? Wink

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Of course this is my humble and insignificant opinion and I don't pretend to ask for any change in the ranking of this site if only I think so.


That only matters if you attach any importance to it which the vast majority don't, however it's a valid point for those that do I guess.

I can't wait for a scheduler - using gf is getting very tedious
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 20:41 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
@Catalyst, the easy answer to why Argos has a better win rate in Competitive than in Box is that Box is where Argos learned to play, and his Box record includes his entire learning curve. However, all of the games he's played in Competitive have been in the last six weeks, and those games reflect his current skill level only. He's played enough C games that luck shouldn't be able to count for much, a few percent maybe. But his skill level is much higher now than it was a year ago, when he hit his nadir and then started playing lots of games in a hurry, and that's why his Box win % is a lot lower than his C win %, and also why his Box CR is higher than the win % indicates (CR is form, w% is history).


Yeah. That is 1 of the answers I gave and the most likely answer.
Maybe I should have labeled them like (A),(B), (C), etc etc.

But all of my answers are possible factors. I was answering the leading question he was asking about WHY he was so much better in C than B.

I suspect the answer you gave (and I also gave) is the primary reason.


The real question is WHY is MY Black Box Ranking higher than my Ranked Ranking? (This one I know. The following questions I do not.)

And why is it that I have a HIGHER Rank on almost every single roster that there is than either my Box or Ranked rating?

The only teams I have with a LOWER Team Ranking than my Average Ranking are teams I do not play very often (like Ogres and Khemri) and I am only 3 to 4 points lower on those teams.

IF I am BETTER with almost every team I have played than my Average HOW is my Average so much lower? Did I find a way to play WITHOUT a Team?
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 20:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I've heard a little bit of grumbling about the CR thing of late, and argos' post has prompted a response while I peruse the forum and await a scheduled game. So: Response.

I honestly, hand on heart, could not give a monkey's about my CR. I struggle to force myself to play pick-up games (evidently) and prefer (largely) resurrection stuff that I have to schedule in, and is generally harder than playing openly. If I cared, I'd make it higher, because I could if I wanted to (which pretty much shows why it's not worth caring. B would be an easier environment in which to inflate it, by the way).

I do think it's silly my CR is still where it is / is visible. I think Glicko (and a decay factor) is a smashing idea and will welcome it in with applause. I suspect some people do care about CR, and it irks them I'm sat on a big-ish number with no jeopardy. The number was fairly earned following a gauntlet of tough games, but that was long ago, so fair enough if you are irked.

I play the way I play because it's the most fun for me, and because children have wrecked motivation to just pop on for a game. Sorry I can't switch my CR off, but it'll soon be fixed anyway.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 22:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that you should play once every six months just to keep the top spot. What's not cool about being number one?

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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 22:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
I've heard a little bit of grumbling about the CR thing of late, and argos' post has prompted a response while I peruse the forum and await a scheduled game. So: Response.

I honestly, hand on heart, could not give a monkey's about my CR. I struggle to force myself to play pick-up games (evidently) and prefer (largely) resurrection stuff that I have to schedule in, and is generally harder than playing openly. If I cared, I'd make it higher, because I could if I wanted to (which pretty much shows why it's not worth caring. B would be an easier environment in which to inflate it, by the way).

I do think it's silly my CR is still where it is / is visible. I think Glicko (and a decay factor) is a smashing idea and will welcome it in with applause. I suspect some people do care about CR, and it irks them I'm sat on a big-ish number with no jeopardy. The number was fairly earned following a gauntlet of tough games, but that was long ago, so fair enough if you are irked.

I play the way I play because it's the most fun for me, and because children have wrecked motivation to just pop on for a game. Sorry I can't switch my CR off, but it'll soon be fixed anyway.


I honestly didn't write the post with a specific player in mind, sorry I didn't want to make it a personal case at all but a more general discussion.

You will agree with me that to maintain the ranking it would be reasonable for a player to play at least one game in Competitive / Ranked / Box in a year. The deflating factor that Christer introduced into the CR calculation takes into account the absence of a coach from the site, but clearly if a coach only plays league games he keeps his ranking (as it keeps the attendance fee). I like Glicko a lot too and I really thank Christer for the idea. But I think a ranking deflation system if a player no longer has the time or desire to play ranked games is fair enough as well as the ranking deflation in case of long-term absence from fumbbl.

However, I understand your point about lack of time and not being able to wait for the Game Finder all the time, so it is certainly easier to organise league games that are scheduled. There's no doubt about that, I was making a point.

But it is also true that the ranking is only calculated for C/B/R games.

Hoping to see you soon on the GF and the Scheduler Wink

Purplegoo wrote:

because I could if I wanted to (which pretty much shows why it's not worth caring. B would be an easier environment in which to inflate it, by the way).



Here, however, I beg to differ a little. I have always found the Box much more difficult than scheduled (Leagues ... ) or Game Finder games. Not really the "nice and quite place where to inflate one's ranking"
First and foremost because you have no way of preparing in advance, it is a "blind" draw and the association rules can sometimes be tragic (if you activate a team with more than 15 or 20 games you may well be associated with teams that have a much higher TV Gap).
If the TV gap problem is mitigated today with the Season Redraft, this does not take away from the fact that the best players on the site (of which I am NOT a member of course) play in the Box.
In this sense the warning in the FUMBBL quick start guide is very true
https://fumbbl.com/help:CRP

" The Blackbox division is a highly competitive, cut-throat division where coaches are not able to choose who they play against. The toughest, roughest teams compete for glory in this division and there is no mercy for the weak! This division is NOT recommended for newcomers to Blood Bowl!"

brings to our mind the warning Dante placed at the gates of Hell in his Inferno:

ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER HERE!

Very Happy Twisted Evil

But after all, maybe the truth is that I find Box very difficult only because I am a mediocre player. Embarassed
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2021 - 23:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
If I cared, I'd make it higher, because I could if I wanted to (which pretty much shows why it's not worth caring. B would be an easier environment in which to inflate it, by the way).


Wisdom. We need this framed somewhere.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 27, 2021 - 17:33 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
I think that you should play once every six months just to keep the top spot. What's not cool about being number one?


Like a CHAMPION in Boxing facing a CHALLENGER or being forced to give up his TITLE?

Haha. I like it. Not sure it is FAIR to the Champion in this case because we don't PAY HIM etc as he would be to Box.

But in RANKED it could be hyped that he was going to face some other Highly Ranked Challenger. And that could be fun to SPECTATE.

In BOX I guess it could be advertised he will ACTIVATE at X Server Time... and if you will also activate at that time YOU TOO could face the Top Ranked Coach.

I'm not sure it is actually something that could be done or that it is really a good idea. But it made me happy to think about and write about for a bit.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2021 - 04:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I've noticed a couple of new players have created [R] teams based on the recommendation when you create new teams. Is it time to amend the team creation page to recommend new players creation [C] teams?

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HimalayaP1C7



Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2021 - 12:13 Reply with quote Back to top

That seems a very good idea but I think there are a couple of big final steps to finish off in the move to 2020, I guess once those are in place it will be a good time to update this page and lots of the help pages too. Main steps I’m thinking of are the seasons/redraft process, transferring teams from R/B into C and the random matchmaker for C. I think the FUMBBL team are also waiting for new rules in an upcoming FAQ, but I don’t really understand that.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2021 - 14:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Those changes could take some time.

The description for Ranked says "This division is a good starting place for new coaches".
It does NOT mention that is uses the old ruleset.

It is better to change this text straight away I think.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2021 - 14:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that, to prevent any confusion, would be better to remove the Ranked option from this page: https://fumbbl.com/p/createteam

If people want to play with old ruleset they can still do it in League division.
A newcomer could be fooled by the Ranked option and create a team there.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2021 - 23:11 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
The description for Ranked says "This division is a good starting place for new coaches".
It does NOT mention that is uses the old ruleset.

I don't see how it can be a good place for new comers any more, very few people seem to play there (at the time of posting 15 competitive games active, 0 ranked) and those that do are usually experienced teams. I think it will be very off-putting to newbies to create a team and not be able to get a game.

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