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Poll
Four blitzers or 3 & a Witch Elf?
Blitzers
53%
 53%  [ 52 ]
Witch Elf
46%
 46%  [ 45 ]
Total Votes : 97


MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2017 - 01:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Cause AG 4 can't catch a ball, of course.
Pass allows to reroll the pass, AG 4 + RR allows to reroll the catch.
Not so unlikely action and it's better to have an option than not having it.
As I said, I'm not a fan of passing game, but this doesn't mean I never consider it as plan B. Also, Pass has synergy with Dump Off, so not useless on a Runner, especially if you expect he will be blitzed by a specialized ball sacker/leaper.


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 06, 2017 - 01:29; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2017 - 01:26 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
Oh lordy...

Another 'take passing skills' post.

*sigh*


When you gonna crap on Jump Up? Soon I hope Wink
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2017 - 01:27 Reply with quote Back to top

The odds of dumping off with passing skills plus catching is in most cases much better than the odds of taking a 2 dice hit without getting powed. So if you fail to screen the ballcarrier thanks to snake eyes on a dodge Dump-Off will often save you.

Passing skills also allows you to execute some other tactics more safely. For example if you are under pressure and need to run back with the ballcarrier out of distance from enemy players, then you can do that without the risk of being isolated next turn and not being able to form a new cage since he can quite easily just pass to another player who might be in better position to either just run out of distance on the other side or form a new cage elsewhere.
delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2017 - 05:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Tricktickler wrote:
The odds of dumping off with passing skills plus catching is in most cases much better than the odds of taking a 2 dice hit without getting powed. So if you fail to screen the ballcarrier thanks to snake eyes on a dodge Dump-Off will often save you.

Passing skills also allows you to execute some other tactics more safely. For example if you are under pressure and need to run back with the ballcarrier out of distance from enemy players, then you can do that without the risk of being isolated next turn and not being able to form a new cage since he can quite easily just pass to another player who might be in better position to either just run out of distance on the other side or form a new cage elsewhere.


I truly don't get why people hate on Dumpoff.

Dumpoff literally forces the other coach to consider the possibility of a changing ball carrier. on an AG3 team it is risky, ag4 you suddenly have a ? on your ball carrier...
Then they only need 1 skill like pass or Accurate to ensure a good dumpoff. Now the opposing coach has to mark all potential receivers and get enough people on the carrier to cause a good blocking dice.

Even if the throw is inaccurate, if you get the ball away you have frustrated the opposing coaches blitz. Players have moved and committed.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2017 - 08:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Dump Off is bad because the chances of using it are so rare, but you have to pay 20k for it. simple

thinking about the malmir winning the xfl - congrats to him but it's a runner-friendly environment perhaps... you know there's not much mighty blow so the -AV hurts less
(there's zero claw though)

also in a mirror of MV6/7 teams, having the speed advantage can be really good
Chris300



Joined: Oct 22, 2021

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2021 - 09:22 Reply with quote Back to top

How do people feel about this now with 2020 rules? All other positions cannot pass as easy now and dump off is easier because you don’t have the blocking opponent as a negative modifier
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2021 - 09:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Why does nobody start with dedicated fans? Dark Elves need lots of cash for those positionals. Investing in DF quickly pays off.

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Better lucky than good
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2021 - 12:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Chris300 wrote:
How do people feel about this now with 2020 rules? All other positions cannot pass as easy now and dump off is easier because you don’t have the blocking opponent as a negative modifier

Dump-Off is better and worse in BB2020:
- better because you can use it once the Dump-Off player is targeted by a Blitz, before being marked by the Blitzing player;
- worse because, as the Dump-Off happens before the Blitz, in case of failed pass the Blitzing player could just change his move to pick the ball up. I think that the Blitzing player should declare the pathing to the Dump-Off player first and stick to it.

Moreover, 3+ without Pass is not that reliable (55.55% assuming 3+ pass and 2+ catch). It can be handy to have the Dump-Off option, but I would not rely on it.


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 01, 2021 - 14:48; edited 1 time in total
policeshades



Joined: Oct 31, 2017

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2021 - 14:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Irgy wrote:
but the witch is still worthwhile because having just one player on the team with frenzy completely changes the opponent's positioning options.


This. Much better coaches than me think the Blitzers are a better choice though... I did start that way (4 Blitzers and get a Witch when possible) but the frenzy option to impact on opponents' positioning has swung me the other way more recently.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2021 - 16:51 Reply with quote Back to top

These days, I'd take 2 Blitzers, 9 Linemen, 3 RR, 3 DF. Hire an Apothecary, then positionals to taste. Then in season 2, you can have a lino-heavy draft and take all your positionals (mostly as rookies) and 3 RR, so by the end of season 2, you've got a well-rounded squad ready for tournaments, and structured so you can charge out the gate like a lion with 1-season-old positionals.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2021 - 23:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Nice thread Necro! I had totally forgotten about licker...
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2021 - 05:04 Reply with quote Back to top

policeshades wrote:
Much better coaches than me think the Blitzers are a better choice though... I did start that way (4 Blitzers and get a Witch when possible) but the frenzy option to impact on opponents' positioning has swung me the other way more recently.

I think I started with 3 Blitzers and 2RRs I think (so some DF). I agree the Witch adds a lot to the game and if it was a one off game I would probably agree. But I think for a starting team you intend to build blitzers are best. Witches tend to die easily, the will defiantly be your opponents main target as they are soft and a threat. Blitzers are slightly tougher and cheaper to replace.

_________________
Better lucky than good
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2021 - 06:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Kinks wrote:
policeshades wrote:
Much better coaches than me think the Blitzers are a better choice though... I did start that way (4 Blitzers and get a Witch when possible) but the frenzy option to impact on opponents' positioning has swung me the other way more recently.

I think I started with 3 Blitzers and 2RRs I think (so some DF). I agree the Witch adds a lot to the game and if it was a one off game I would probably agree. But I think for a starting team you intend to build blitzers are best. Witches tend to die easily, the will defiantly be your opponents main target as they are soft and a threat. Blitzers are slightly tougher and cheaper to replace.



I would rather have a one skill witch than a one skill blitzer. (Wrestle for the witch. Dodge for the blitzer)

However, I would rather have a rookie blitzer over a rookie witch.

That is why I would take blitzers over witches on a rookie team.
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Dec 04, 2021 - 09:11 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Moreover, 3+ without Pass is not that reliable (55.55% assuming 3+ pass and 2+ catch). It can be handy to have the Dump-Off option, but I would not rely on it.

The best way to treat a Runner is a safety. By the way, with a team re-roll your chances go up from ~55% to ~83%, which is not too bad.

I would take 3 Blitzers and 1 Witch Elf, because this means you have a Frenzy to threaten anything too close to the sidelines with the Blitz action. That said, I can see why someone skips Witches completely on a fresh team.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 04, 2021 - 11:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
Moreover, 3+ without Pass is not that reliable (55.55% assuming 3+ pass and 2+ catch). It can be handy to have the Dump-Off option, but I would not rely on it.

The best way to treat a Runner is a safety. By the way, with a team re-roll your chances go up from ~55% to ~83%, which is not too bad.

Dump-Off happens in opponent's turn, so you can't use a team re-roll. My post was a comparison between old and new Dump-Off and its usefulness.
I generally field the Runner when I don't have enough turns to score by running with the ball, because I will probably have to pass it and 3+ is better than 4+. On defence I prefer to keep the Runner safe on the bench, especially if he lacks Block and Dodge.


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 04, 2021 - 12:15; edited 1 time in total
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