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Poll
Is BB20 really a problem?
Yes.
17%
 17%  [ 21 ]
I miss CLAWPOMB.
8%
 8%  [ 10 ]
Dwarfs still like it.
15%
 15%  [ 19 ]
Game should use 1d8 instead of 1d6.
8%
 8%  [ 10 ]
I've left fumbbl since the update and didn't even read this.
10%
 10%  [ 12 ]
Throw Team Mate is bugged.
4%
 4%  [ 5 ]
I will always find a way to minmax!
10%
 10%  [ 13 ]
Pie.
24%
 24%  [ 29 ]
Total Votes : 119


ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 05:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
right, my concern is teams like lizardmen, who really suffer if they are missing a saurus; but they have no cash flow problems. you can't really justify firing a multi skill saurus just because they're mng, and that means you have more games where you are just.. weaker


I agree... you're not going to fire a 2-3 skilled positional on a MNG. In the C-Div TV driven match making, you're going to drop TV and hence be matched with a lesser TV team compared to your full strength TV.

In that case, its yeah, suck it up and play a game with 5 Saurus... OR, you can use cash to buy inducements / stars and maybe a merc Saurus if 6 Saurus are important to you.

In a fixed league, then yeah, you'd probably have a big TV difference against similarly aged teams and hence get alot of free petty cash to spend on inducements...

Which brings us back to the old discussion when 2020 rules first came out and due to the power of Stars and other inducements, should we go back to a "Number of Games" basis of matchmaking rather than TV. I think 2020 is very good at boosting the underdog and Stars are very powerful.

So if you lose say 100k in TV in a skilled Saurus and your opponent is around 100-150k TV higher than you, then bring in a wizard or star to help you win the game.

If you're matched at same TV, then I think C Div loses some luster in the 2020 rules.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 11:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Against my better judgement, and possibly against rational thought, I'm going to address a few things raised in this thread while I have my morning coffee before summiting Laithach.


One of the first things one must consider when discussing TV in BB 2020 is that DF does not count towards TV the way FF did in 2016 and before. This means that a lot of teams you'd consider to be eg. 1800k TV in 2020 would actually be 1920k+ TV in 2016, but also that a lot of the teams floated around that legendary 2000k TV mark in CRP would actually be around 1880k TV in 2020.


When we consider FUMBBL itself, without wishing to speak for the man himself, I had several dialogues with Christer around the time of the rules changes and his mindset was not only to follow them to the letter where possible, but also to do so in a manner deemed best for the community - steps were taken to protect the vulnerable members of the site where and if possible.

Over time the extreme disparity in TVs between older and newly created teams in both R and B had led to a decrease in available matches, in turn leading to decreased matchmaking and decreased mentally satisfying games within those that were actually made. Amalgamation of the divisions alone would not have solved this issue.
The redraft mechanism of BB2020 does, by flatlining TV and creating a more even distribution of TV throughout the division.

The redraft also addresses many issues pertaining to huge TV/older teams throughout the site:

  • Huge teams consistently dominating majors, even just by the nature of putting people off entering them, without ever actually playing many games outside of majors. Thus avoiding the normal wear & tear of every day matchmaking, and retaining stacked skill, hundred+ SPP players for extremely long periods of time with little risk.
  • TV difference (rightly or wrongly) is the primary limitation on game selection even between possible games, cutting the size of the variable produces more favourable matches
  • Moves the game closer to table top, which in turn reduces the barrier for entry not just for new players, but coaches emerging from a table top background.
  • Many high TV teams currently on FUMBBL from old rulesets have players with accrued skills/SPP from mechanisms that are either removed or wholly against the spirit of modern BB - there are CWs still around who have the vast majority of their SPP from clawpomb, eg. there are black orcs, saurus, and flesh golems who have 4+ skills from d3 MVP, etc etc. Each of these players not only gained massively from a mechanism that no longer exists, but benefited every player that was built around them. It is completely asinine that in the year 2022 we could potentially see games still heavily affected by players who picked their legend skill in 2011 riding the wave of cpomb.
  • Some older teams even have rosters that are currently illegal or have even been illegal for multiple rulesets!
  • The lack of attrition and unfettered team growth of FUMBBL's application of bb2016 rules effectively created a sub-metagame in terms of TV/skills which taking everything else into account, simply would be unhealthy to leave unchecked
  • Without a redraft, or with too high a redraft, high TV stops actually being anything like what we have even seen before, as the new skill system would effectively simply be a roster editor.


With all this in mind, and more, the redraft simply has to be applied. The TV cap and the max games were selected after much, much thinking - this wasn't a spurious decision. It wasn't an easy decision either. And it was made both with direct reference to the rules and consideration with how it would affect both old and new players. The adjustment to the W/L/D winnings etc was also made with this in mind.

If that decision proves to be wrong, inaccurate or misguided later, max games, the formulas for W/L/D or the TV redraft float itself will be revisited. But this will surely occur after the site itself actually gets completely into the swing of 2020 - that is to say a the redraft itself has actually been put in place, a scheduler is implemented, a trophy is completed and a major (or two) has been played. At that point we would have some form of data from which to draw conclusions and adjust where necessary.

And lastly, I am fully aware that some of these decisions will have proven deleterious to the enjoyment of some on an individual basis no matter what the end outcome is. And I am sorry about that. But it is the nature of an approach based on the totality. And in this case, it is also simply a byproduct of the new ruleset - and given that in the past, many rulesets of blood bowl have openly rewarded growth (3rd ed, lrb4), and while CRP introduced checks against it (inducements & attrition) it never completely discouraged it, it's to be expected many coaches are disgruntled or openly hostile to the results.

*as an aside, I spent almost 2 hours on this post, scant words as they were.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 11:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks AD. It is may be worth putting that into a blog or something so that it can be more easily referenced.

It is pretty sad though. Crying or Very sad

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 11:43 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Not really. 25% of all deaths and Badly Hurts from the d68 table are replaced with (mostly) niggles and (a little) MNGs, and Niggles are both minor and temporary. You're a lot more likely to suffer some kind of consequences, but the odds of a statloss are unchanged and the odds of dying have gone down.

If you want to win the current game you are playing the BB2020 Casualty table is worse, and long term development is not that important anymore due to Season Re-Draft. Yes, the permanent consequences have gone down, but Season Re-Draft will induce to fire players anyway, so it's not that big trade off. We should consider the whole picture. With old rules a Legend could have been kept for more than 30 games.

With the old rules a BH was 50%, now it's 37.5%.
If I'm playing with the goal to win the current game what happens to a Saurus (I use Lizardmen as example because they have been mentioned) long term is not an important factor. It's important that a player is as likely BH as SI so I have more chances to use the Apo to heal him and use him for the rest of that game. With BB2020 CAS table an injured Saurus is more likely SI or Dead than BH (and thus re-rolling the result with the Apo less effective).
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 17:40 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

(SNIPPED a careful and in depth review of lots of issue)

And lastly, I am fully aware that some of these decisions will have proven deleterious to the enjoyment of some on an individual basis no matter what the end outcome is. And I am sorry about that. But it is the nature of an approach based on the totality. And in this case, it is also simply a byproduct of the new ruleset - and given that in the past, many rulesets of blood bowl have openly rewarded growth (3rd ed, lrb4), and while CRP introduced checks against it (inducements & attrition) it never completely discouraged it, it's to be expected many coaches are disgruntled or openly hostile to the results.

*as an aside, I spent almost 2 hours on this post, scant words as they were.


Just want to say thank you for taking the time to put that together. I'd agree love to see that in a blog post as well.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 19:11 Reply with quote Back to top

@MattD: definitely. Not only do you lose 25% of your BH's that you could auto-save to reserves, but you also lose 25% of the firepower of the Apothecary to auto-save them. Paradoxically, since you're less likely to roll a BH initially, you're more likely to roll a result that you might try to save to BH, and the likelihood of your Apo doing his job on the reroll only goes down by 6.25%, while your total save chance drops more like 20%.

Old rules: 1/2 for a BH natural, plus 1/2 of 1/2 to roll into BH, total 3/4 to save to reserves.

New rules: 3/8 for a BH natural, plus 3/8 of 5/8 to roll into BH, total 39/64 (a little over 60%) to save to reserves.

Net result: Apo for BH is 81.25% as good as it was before (39 vs 48 = 13 vs 16). This is comparable to giving the Apo a 2+ negatrait. so Apo for Badly Hurt now has Bone Head.

Note, though, that as a player-career-saver, the chance of getting an old (bad) niggle, or a statloss, or death, is somewhat mitigated by the Apothecary. If you're saving up for bad damage on a good player, it looks like this:

Old rules: 1/3 for badness, times 1/3 to re-roll into badness, = 1/9 for badness.

New rules: 1/4 for badness, times 1/4 to re-roll into badness, = 1/16 for badness.

Net result: for every 16 players you would have lost, using the Apothecary this way the new rules will spare 7 of them. That's a 43.75% reduction in permanent damage after Apo, from edition to edition.

One other thing is that the changing definition of "casualty" has skewed the official Cas count even lower than it was before. Used to be that surfs, failed dodges/rushes, and rocks could do damage but not show up in the casualty table, and that's still true. But now fouls don't show up either, and fouling has gotten better, so while on paper the amount of blood looks similar or even lower, in practice it's modestly higher.

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 21:50 Reply with quote Back to top

the rare AD post is a welcome sight and we should treasure them more

thanks for that AD
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 23:30 Reply with quote Back to top

@AD

Thanks for the insight.

I think I have finally just decided to accept "my fate".

Now, I do have a question, most likely this is the wrong fourm.

Why not just reset the entire C div and tell everybody they need to make new teams and old R/B teams are history?

Reset the entire site for BB2020 when it comes to C div play and accept the moans and groans and rage quit.

As a coach of a what I would call a legacy team on FUMBBL iam totally fine with just making a new Buccaneer team in the C div and move on.

IMO and Iam totally out of the loop of how hard it is to reset a site as large as FUMBBl my pea brain just says...old R/B teams are dead...make a new team and move on. "We" do it all the time in the L div over all our leagues.

Plus as a fan of the stats and so forth on the site...it resets the entire site to the new BB2020 rules. Lets have new top lists for just BB2020 and move on.

Just my thoughts.

Iam remaking the Buccaneers in the C div whole cloth and moving on.

For the fans of the Buccaneers keep your eyes open for a epic tale of the reset.

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Last edited by PainState on Jun 28, 2022 - 23:37; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 23:36 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:

Why not just reset the entire C div and tell everybody they need to make new teams and old R/B teams are history?

Reset the entire site for BB2020 when it comes to C div play and accept the moans and groans and rage quit.


Why would you reset the division? It is a new division. People did make new teams.

Old teams will effectively be reset down to 1350 or lower.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 23:43 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
PainState wrote:

Why not just reset the entire C div and tell everybody they need to make new teams and old R/B teams are history?

Reset the entire site for BB2020 when it comes to C div play and accept the moans and groans and rage quit.


Why would you reset the division? It is a new division. People did make new teams.

Old teams will effectively be reset down to 1350 or lower.


Why wait? why make coaches wait if their old team will be converted? Just tell the masses...IT AINT HAPPENING!!!!

When I make my new and improved BB2020 Buccaneer team I will just link their old profile to my new team and anybody who wants to hit the link and read about greatness can.

For me...it does not matter...Iam moving on.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 23:47 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
koadah wrote:
PainState wrote:

Why not just reset the entire C div and tell everybody they need to make new teams and old R/B teams are history?

Reset the entire site for BB2020 when it comes to C div play and accept the moans and groans and rage quit.


Why would you reset the division? It is a new division. People did make new teams.

Old teams will effectively be reset down to 1350 or lower.


Why wait? why make coaches wait if their old team will be converted? Just tell the masses...IT AINT HAPPENING!!!!

When I make my new and improved BB2020 Buccaneer team I will just link their old profile to my new team and anybody who wants to hit the link and read about greatness can.

For me...it does not matter...Iam moving on.


No one is forcing anyone to wait. Do what you want to do.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 23:53 Reply with quote Back to top

@koadah

From my perspective it seems there is a lot of effort being made by Chirster and the admins to come up with some way to import old teams from R/B to the new C div. It is taking a long time and will most likely take months to finish.

Why? That is all Iam asking..... Just let the "old" die off and we move on with the new.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 00:00 Reply with quote Back to top

i like history. i dislike new teams. if there is any chance i won't have to play 1000tv again, i will wait for it - i'd literally rather not play than make new teams in C
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 00:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
i like history.


History of what? The only History in the old R/B div was Majors winners. History of the epic struggles in the semi and final matches...all recorded into the FUMBBL history book on the Tournament pages.

Are you talking about the "history" of your teams overall record? the link to all your past matches?

All of that pales into insignificances to the power of BB2020.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 00:19 Reply with quote Back to top

@Nelphine

Come on man...you have not made one team in the C Div...I will hold your hand...make a 1000TV team and you and I will play against my new and improved Buccaneer team. We can do this together..just slowly walk into the shallow waters together and just embrace it. Trust me the water temp is good and no one will splash you in the face or do a cannon ball on top of you.

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