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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 23:12 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:


I mostly agree. The problem is, this is the ruleset we got. And this ruleset was (imho) written with leagues in mind, and (imho) SPECIFICALLY to address old league problems.



This is the irony of FUMBBL..when you say League, you are actually talking about C or the old R/B. Because "league" play on FUMBBL is its own beast run by each league comish like they are Gods of FUMBBL. they can run their league how ever they want in any fashion they want. So the idea that the new rules where written for league play does not actually apply to FUMBBL league play.

C is the "League" on FUMBBL then by those definitions and Christer is the league Comish.

So as one member of the one league, actually by the definition of the term League, under the new rules of FUMBBL iam appealing to Christer, my league Comish to reconsider the redraft at X TV base level. Iam not saying to NOT redraft, just at what TV level it should be set at to make the "league" more fun for everyone. Or we reconsider that the base draft is at 1350 TV but a season is 20 or 25 games before hard reset with the condition that if you go over the season limit during a major or minor you must reset your roster. Thus the only way to "by pass" the hard reset is to play in a tournament.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 23:37 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
JanMattys wrote:


I mostly agree. The problem is, this is the ruleset we got. And this ruleset was (imho) written with leagues in mind, and (imho) SPECIFICALLY to address old league problems.



This is the irony of FUMBBL..when you say League, you are actually talking about C or the old R/B.


Not really. I get what you are saying. But please, consider that C will never be a proper league, no matter how thin you want to stretch semantics. C play will be regulated by two systems (or by both, depending if your team will be "mixed" or not):
1- Choice of opponent (aka gamefinder, aka "I'm beaten, I'll look for something soft")
or
2- Tv-matching (aka blackbox).

Those two systems are made possible by the high number of coaches and by some amazing coding by our Lord and Saviour Big C.

But a true league doesn't have any of that. A true league doesn't have a player base in the high hundreds. A true league doesn't have tv matching. And a true league doesn't allow you to choose your opponent. Normally (I know, but bear with me) it has a schedule, it tells you to suck it up if you get beaten to a pulp, and it doesn't care in the slightest if your next opponent is 600tv higher than you. Also, but this is a pet peeve of mine, winning a league means something. Having a great record over 15 games in C means nothing.

The current ruleset addresses these problems by making the stars stronger, the inducements much deeper (for example, mercenaries), and by giving a hard redraft that promises (in theory) to level the playing field every once in a while.

C is not a league. C won't be a true league even at 15 games 1350 redraft. Not on gamefinder, and not on blackbox. As long as people game the system (not rolling skills because so they will have a better start next season, or not burning money for the same reason), it will never be a league. which is supposed to be something you take a part in because you want to WIN it. There's nothing to win in a C season.

That said, the redraft cap and the lenght of a season in C are just a matter of preference so we are basically back to square one. Your tv preference is as good as Christer's. I just happen to agree with him more. Wink
My guess is that Christer took the average tv of a C team and choose the 400tv bracked that engulfed the most of them. Very Happy

I was just pointing out that for leagues (REAL leagues, not our Open/Ranked/Competitive/Blind/Whatever division) the rules are pretty decent. They do what they were designed to do.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 00:10 Reply with quote Back to top

The Black Box Trophy is quite close to a league. You have to win something (top place in the rankings) and you don't get to pick your opponents. You play for 15 games, so, it's not perpetual. Again, quite close to a single Season private league.
By the way, winning a private league doesn't mean a lot if your opponents are bad (not implying that your own private league has bad opponents, just talking in general).
I played in 3 private leagues made mostly by average-bad coaches (with CRP rules, not BB2020), so, unless it's a private league made mostly by good coaches, winning a league is not a super big achievement in itself. Ok, if you play a tier 3 team it is, but you get what I mean.
Also, unless your private league gives real money prizes I don't think there is something to win apart from the immaterial glory, fame and sense of pride and achievement, which even one-off games in the Box can give, especially if you win consistently.
I even doubt that BB2020 rules fix the unbalances issues, because, as long as some rosters will start with many core skills and others with few core skills there always be balance issues. It's easy to get random skills on Norse Linemen, do it on EU Linemen and tell me how good the BB2020 rules are (I talk about private leagues).
Private leagues are not the e-sport version of BB.
That said, I agree with you that Competitive division will never be really a competitive division due to the hybrid GF and Box system. Picking is not compatible with competion. Box Trophy doesn't allow to pick games for that reason, i.e. to be a serious competition.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 00:45 Reply with quote Back to top

the black box trophy does not permit you to continue playing the same team season to season.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 00:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Also, it is based on tv-matching.

I’m not saying that winning in C is not impressive. I am saying that C, no matter the format (gf or blackbox) will never be a league.

Aldo, it is not important if you steamroll the opposition or not. If you end up 14/0/1 in blackbox you probably ade in the first percentile of coaches. If you go 14/0/1 in a league and you happen to lose the final, you fail.

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Last edited by JanMattys on Jul 06, 2022 - 00:58; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 00:58 Reply with quote Back to top

It is a league. Just a different kind of league.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 01:01 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:

I was just pointing out that for leagues (REAL leagues, not our Open/Ranked/Competitive/Blind/Whatever division) the rules are pretty decent. They do what they were designed to do.


They may do what they were intended to do but for some leagues they are ****.

We already knew how to deal with that stuff.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 01:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh God. It is not the kind of league that the rules wanted to fix. Hence, bb2020 looks like a poor update for fumbbl ranked kind of league.
I am sure i made my point. Further discussion seems more semantics than anything else.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 01:03 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
JanMattys wrote:

I was just pointing out that for leagues (REAL leagues, not our Open/Ranked/Competitive/Blind/Whatever division) the rules are pretty decent. They do what they were designed to do.


They may do what they were intended to do but for some leagues they are ****.

We already knew how to deal with that stuff.


Well I played both bb2016 and bb2020 leagues with the same people. Multiple seasons pf both. And bb2020 just works better imho.

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RedDevilCG



Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 01:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Is redrafting a thing in C yet?
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 01:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Not yet

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 01:16 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
koadah wrote:
JanMattys wrote:

I was just pointing out that for leagues (REAL leagues, not our Open/Ranked/Competitive/Blind/Whatever division) the rules are pretty decent. They do what they were designed to do.


They may do what they were intended to do but for some leagues they are ****.

We already knew how to deal with that stuff.


Well I played both bb2016 and bb2020 leagues with the same people. Multiple seasons pf both. And bb2020 just works better imho.


I guess that kinda depends on what you wanted to do in the first place.

Edit:

JanMattys wrote:
Oh God. It is not the kind of league that the rules wanted to fix. Hence, bb2020 looks like a poor update for fumbbl ranked kind of league.
I am sure i made my point. Further discussion seems more semantics than anything else.


Ditto.

Some people seem to like it. So, again, It is about what people like to do.

People like different things so they play some leagues and not others. But previously, more play styles worked.
The commish opted to kill some play styles. That is his choice.

Seasons could suit more people if they had more options.

On TT we'll do what we like though. Mr. Green

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 02:47 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

That said, I agree with you that Competitive division will never be really a competitive division due to the hybrid GF and Box system. Picking is not compatible with competion. Box Trophy doesn't allow to pick games for that reason, i.e. to be a serious competition.


OMG..

I really just want to stop right here.

Fine, ok.

Lets go on this basic premise. C is a mixed, pick\scheduler system of match making. Base 1350 TV reset on a 15 game season, which BTW Iam against but does not matter.

Your theory,matt, is that only one true way to glory is all 15 games are scheduled, old style box style?

No matches outside the box so to speak ?

That is your theory..I will not talk you out of it.

Here is my theory. Coaches in the C div play out there games..all of them meta gamers to the max. They all enter the FUMBBL Cup at the required 15 games and have uber pimped out teams. It is a 7 round KO style tournament, at that point all that matters is coaching and some NUFFLE luck. Just like league play tournaments...everyone enters the tourney on the same footing.

Are really going to argue that a C major is jaded or not up to par because some of the teams picked their foe in their 15 game season? You argue for survival of the fittest and that is what a C major is...yet you put disclaimers on who is a true champion.

The reality of the day is that FUMBBL majors from this point forward are going to be C majors that allow Picking/Scheduler or both from this point forward. Make the best team you can in 15 games and we will see you in a major or minor.

All that matters to me is on the day of the "draw" of a major and the schedule is set....who wins.......dont tell me that teams who picked even one game did not deserve to win.

Your iron man scheduler only coach style is actually wearing really thin with me.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 02:55 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
It is a league. Just a different kind of league.


Yep, a league that every coach on this site can make a team and play games. No need to worry about a schedule match or any thing. You get to do what ever you want.

It is actually the most open and fun league on the site. You do what you want to do and at some points you want to go back to scheduled tournament style play you can.

And on top of that you can say you are serious BB2020 coach who only plays by the rules.

Shocked Very Happy

Inless you go on that new and cool gamefinder 2.0 and for some reason "pick" a game and then you are on the bad side of Matt. Cant help you there but I hope you had a fun and enjoyable game of Blood Bowl which is the #1 goal of this site.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 06, 2022 - 03:07 Reply with quote Back to top

If/when the old style Box cup shows up..which I hope it does. All you Iron man box only guys can have a good time and good luck on the final standings.

I suspect though that with the new version of C game finding.....only scheduler matches will count towards box standings. Iam cool with that....please, do no change the title of Box Cup. Do not give into the future at the expense of the past.

And if a coach who is on GF2.0 and actually accpets a match is not given a scarlet letter of being a "picker", he just wanted to play a game and have fun and sadly it will not count towards his Box cup standings.

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