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MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: May 25, 2023 - 00:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I figured for maximum hilarity I would attempt BBT8 and E.L.F. simultaneously, and I realise that, coming from a vackground of bash and stunty teams, my finesse is more than a little lacking.

With that in mind, how should I build these guys?

Currently: 2 blitzers, 2 catchers, 1 thrower, 6 linemen, 2 rerolls and an apo.

I went fishing for random Leader, got Running Pass instead.

So... as I have 135k in treasury right now, should I buy a third catcher, a third reroll, or more linemen? (I looked at MattDakka's team for inspiration and he's running 3 rerolls +a leader, when I assumed elf coaches were all thoughtful and low on rerolls...)

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Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: May 25, 2023 - 01:09 Reply with quote Back to top

4 reroll elves let you do a lot of dumb aggressive stuff. I like to get to 3 + leader ASAP as well. My helf squad went undefeated through a full cycle last ELF season if you want to take a look at it. Nothing crazy, just get blodge and a MA9 guy and just play using the superior speed and agility vs bash teams and ST3 catchers vs speed teams like skaven.
Don't be afraid of a 1 die block here or there when its important, thats why you have rerolls. Think about how you would get a breakaway if you manage to pop the ball on defense, but don't overcommit and get bashed into the ground
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 25, 2023 - 11:20 Reply with quote Back to top

I tried playing HE with 2 rrs + Leader and 3 rrs + Leader.
In theory 2 rrs + Leader can work, but there is no much room for failures. An extra double skull, a failed Rush, a failed pick up could make you play the drive struggling due to few rrs left.
Moreover, with 2 rrs + Leader, if the Thrower gets injured, you could have to play the next game with 2 rrs or without Thrower, because HE generally don't have a big Treasury. So, I personally found that 3 rrs + Leader (or 4 rrs) is the right amount, especially with the multi rr rule. You don't want to lack a rr for that last Rush to score. Also, 3 rrs + Leader are useful for 1TTD attempts.
Another thing I found out, personally, your gameplay may vary, is that the Thrower should be built to maximize 1TTD odds.
Leader is a core skill, then Sure Hands, then On The Ball, this is my Thrower's build.
Not a shiny Long Bomb Thrower, but a more humble and practical ball retriever to improve 1TTD odds.
Also, Sure Hands saves a rr for the trivial pick up task, and, since the ball is in Thrower's hands, the extra bonus is throwing that vanity pass to farm 1 SPP (that way he develops quite steadily game by game).
I'm not saying that Cannoneer is a bad skill, I took it on former Throwers, but it could be better to have a "ball retriever" Thrower.
The emergency passing plan B is nice to have, don't get me wrong, but I found that I can do well even without Cannoneer, HE are quite fast and a Catcher can move the ball by handing it off to another team mate.
Next level up on my Thrower could be either +PA or Cannoner, but even without that he did well so far.

To answer to the question: I think you need at least 13 players and 3 trrs. 13 seems to be the right number.
About the third Catcher: 2 can be fine. I try to skill a couple of them before adding the third one, otherwise there are too many AV 8+ players without Blodge/Wrodge. I think that you should have a bench before adding the third Catcher.
So, I suggest to buy first the rr and Linemen, then the third Catcher.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 03, 2023 - 21:26; edited 2 times in total
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 25, 2023 - 17:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Why take Leader though? just take a rostered reroll

Thrower is 100k, lineman is 70k, Leader is 20k, reroll is 50k

So Thrower + Leader = Lineman + Reroll
You're not saving any TV. You gain the passing abilites, but you also make your reroll more fragile


Another way of looking at it:
Leader costs 20k, so if you have the Thrower anyway, you've saved only 30k

But, it's made your reroll more fragile, and it's made your Thrower worse, because he needs more SPP to do his job
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 25, 2023 - 17:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I gain the passing abilities and PA 2+ as well. A PA 4+ Lineman is not as good at passing the ball.
His job is picking up the ball and 2+ passing it to a Catcher/Lineman most of times, especially just after the Kick-Off.
He could have just Sure Hands and On The Ball as first 2 skills, but with Leader I can either rr the pick up, if needed, or, if the pick up is not failed (or I can afford to try again on next turn), I have an extra rr for just 20 TV AND the emergency passing plan as well.
The Thrower is expensive, thus taking Leader mitigates his cost a bit.
About him being fragile: I play in a way that keeps him protected and tagging along the Catcher ball carrier. This way I can still have a decent passing alternative to switch sides. A Lineman can't provide that.
Anyway, let's assume we take Sure Hands and On The Ball on the Thrower as first 2 skills, then, since Elves rely on 1d actions/1TTD and rrs help to do them, it seems logical to take Leader as third skill.
I mean, if you don't play with a Thrower I understand getting 4 team rrs but, if you have a Thrower, the Leader skill helps not to increase too much the TV.
The high Thrower's cost makes Leader almost mandatory, in my opinion.
With Season Re-Draft you could even gamble and roll a random Passing skill. If Leader gets rolled it's a bargain at 10 TV.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 03, 2023 - 21:28; edited 2 times in total
Dan123456



Joined: Nov 28, 2020

Post   Posted: May 25, 2023 - 22:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Funny I was going to comment that no-one has suggested that a Thrower may benefit from a little block/dodge/blodge to keep him alive and ensure that 20TV reroll is more likely to stay in play. Then I checked my HE team... and my blodging leader Thrower is, of course, currently showing MNG Smile.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 25, 2023 - 22:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Classic BB! Very Happy
About Blodging the Thrower up: it's for sure a valid build, but, considering my gameplay, I prefer to have a ball retriever Thrower. Blodge is for the ball carrying Catcher.
With Block, Dodge, Leader the Thrower could lack the Movement to reach the ball to pass it to the Catcher for the 1TTD (or simply at the Kick-Off). If he can't reach the ball at Kick-Off then Sure Hands gets less useful and throwing the vanity pass gets less appealing, because I could be pressured and have to go for the pick up with the Catcher. I found that with Sure Hands and On The Ball my Thrower developed faster.
With On The Ball there is a 100% chance to reach the ball everywhere, sometimes even before it lands.
Assuming that my Thrower survives till Legend, he will take Blodge.
Next level up should be either +PA or Cannoneer (the concept behind is: first, short range ball retriever and eventually long range passing plan B).


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 03, 2023 - 21:25; edited 1 time in total
Dan123456



Joined: Nov 28, 2020

Post   Posted: May 25, 2023 - 23:06 Reply with quote Back to top

MattD - I just watched a replay to see what happened to my thrower. It was your dark elves that crocked him, with a turn 8 3d spiteful block before a fortuitous 1d POW for TD Smile.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 25, 2023 - 23:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Ah yes, I remember that! He suffered a Niggling Injury too. Twisted Evil

That's stuff for a new thread of the "Spiteful" series!
hippesthippo



Joined: May 11, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2023 - 15:09 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I tried playing HE with 2 rrs + Leader and 3 rrs + Leader.
In theory 2 rrs + Leader can work, but there is no much room for failures. An extra double skull, a failed Rush, a failed pick up could make you play the drive struggling due to few rrs left.
Moreover, with 2 rrs + Leader, if the Thrower gets injured, you could have to play the next game with 2 rrs or without Thrower, because HE generally don't have a big Treasury. So, I personally found that 3 rrs + Leader (or 4 rrs) is the right amount, especially with the multi rr rule. You don't want to lack a rr for that last Rush to score. Also, 3 rrs + Leader are useful for 1TTD attempts.
Another thing I found out, personally, your gameplay may vary, is that the Thrower should be built to maximize 1TTD odds.
Leader is a core skill, then Sure Hands, then Kick-Off Return, this is my Thrower's build.
Not a shiny Long Bomb Thrower, but a more humble and practical ball retriever to improve 1TTD odds.
Also, Sure Hands saves a rr for the trivial pick up task, and, since the ball is in Thrower's hands, the extra bonus is throwing that vanity pass to farm 1 SPP (that way he develops quite steadily game by game).
I'm not saying that Cannoneer is a bad skill, I took it on former Throwers, but it could be better to have a "ball retriever" Thrower.
The emergency passing plan B is nice to have, don't get me wrong, but I found that I can do well even without Cannoneer, HE are quite fast and a Catcher can move the ball by handing it off to another team mate.
Next level up on my Thrower could be either +PA or Cannoner, but even without that he did well so far.

To answer to the question: I think you need at least 13 players and 3 trrs. 13 seems to be the right number.
About the third Catcher: 2 can be fine. I try to skill a couple of them before adding the third one, otherwise there are too many AV 8+ players without Blodge/Wrodge. I think that you should have a bench before adding the third Catcher.
So, I suggest to buy first the rr and Linemen, then the third Catcher.


Really good post. I've been trying to figure out High Elves IRL on/off for the past year or so. Your posts and play have been a treat.

Also, I finally made an avatar, so I was really just looking for the best post/comment to reply to in order to see how it looks. Laughing


Last edited by hippesthippo on Jul 03, 2023 - 16:51; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2023 - 15:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks!
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2023 - 20:00
FUMBBL Staff
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yeah, second to that, i like almost all of what Matt says here.

The only thing im less convinced by is the sure hands, either use a reroll or it doesnt matter if its deep. but KoR (or on the ball now) seems like perfect addition to leader.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2023 - 20:08 Reply with quote Back to top

You can use either a Leader or team rr to rr the pick up (as I explained in one of my posts) but then you will lack that rr for the rest of the 1TTD sequence.
With Sure Hands the whole sequence is covered. Pick up with Sure Hands (with On The Ball helping to reach the ball anywhere, thus avoiding Rushes), Pass skill to pass to a Lino/Catcher/Blitzer, the Hand Off to Catcher has Catch, then you should still have 3-4 team rrs to make the Dodges and 3 Rushes with the one turner Catcher.
Without Sure Hands on the Thrower that sequence starts without a built-in rr.
I'm not saying that it's not possible without Sure Hands, but the pick up (unless Touchback or High Kick happens) is a roll you will have to do almost surely.
Hence, I want to have Sure Hands.
Also, with Sure Hands on the Thrower I'm "encouraged" to use him to throw a 2+ vanity pass at start of the drive.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2023 - 20:11 Reply with quote Back to top

eh, i'd still prefer leader -> kick off return -> accurate. lets you do that 2+ pass from way further out, which is important for one turns. sure hands will only be used in 1/6 of the games you have a key pick up; for me personally, running 3 + leader re-rolls, i'll have an extra re-roll remaining in far more than 1/6 of the games. so, the leader (for me) covers that just fine. i used to do sure hands, but it just isn't worth it on ag 2+ players.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2023 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Sure Hands can be used at start of your offensive drive as well.
Also, let's consider this scenario: no Sure Hands, you use the rr.
What if you rr the pick up, the pick up fails and you waste a rr? With Sure Hands you don't waste a rr you could need later.
What if the second pick up fails again? Do you use another rr? Ok, but then you have only 2 rrs left for the rest of the drive (I'm talking about critical pick ups, such as ball adjacent to boundary line or close to the pitch's half line, with opponents nearby, of course you can afford to fail pick ups if the ball is away from the opponents).
It's not always necessary to throw an Accurate pass every game, but it's always necessary to pick the ball up (with either the Touchback or the free catch granted by High Kick or On The Ball's free catch or ball-landing-on-a-player-catching-it exceptions).
It's true that quite often you can afford to fail the first pick up, but, considering how I play, I don't want to fail the pick up and then being mass-marked by opponent players (because then I need to dodge away and that adds rolls I don't want to risk).
I want to get close to the ball with On The Ball, pick the ball up and get back, ideally passing the ball to a freak Catcher.
Sure Hands means that I have the best odds to pick the ball up without risking to waste a team rr I could need later.
On average I don't need 3 rrs + Leader, but I played many games where I rolled under average dice and needed them all. Failing the offensive drive just because you could not rr a Dodge or a Rush is super frustrating.

As an aside, I tend to Hand Off the ball to the Catcher when I try the 1TTD, for the simple fact that a pass could be intercepted.
Sometimes after a chainpush the one turner is marked and an interception could be possible. A pass must be made in a straight line, unlike a hand off.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 03, 2023 - 20:49; edited 2 times in total
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