MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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 Posted:
Dec 14, 2025 - 17:14 |
 
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I manage to play at least one game a day in the Box with Season 2+ teams (I could play more, but the impending Re-Draft doesn't make binge-playing very appealing to me). If you really want to play in the Box you can do it, especially if you have at least one Season 1 team.
The traffic in the Box is lower if people don't play in it. |
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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Dec 14, 2025 - 19:28 |
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I do play in the box. My statement is that if a game is firing in late NA box times its usually just 2 people activating |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Dec 14, 2025 - 19:53 |
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| Drrek wrote: | | I do play in the box. My statement is that if a game is firing in late NA box times its usually just 2 people activating |
This, and...
In addition to what Drrek said, there are a lot of teams in the new edition that will be dependent on strategies that sacrifice TV efficiency vis-a-vis rival builds, but not below the line of inducement value, or that are built around the idea of consistent overdogging unless they're an underdog, and absolutely hate even TV. This dynamic started creeping into the game with BB2020, but now it's clear to me they're leaning into it. Also, more than ever before, "time to skill" is a very important resource to manage in the new balance (no random discount but more likely to get a good roll, stats are better and skills are worse), and basing the game on TV erases that.
This edition is growing on me, but it's obvious to me now that it has to be approached with fresh eyes, and as welcome as the similarities to 2020 are, and that edition to 2016 and in turn to CRP, you can't let this superficial resemblance lull you into thinking the old logic still applies. It's gotta be taken for what it is, not for what we're used to. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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Dec 14, 2025 - 20:40 |
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| Zelmor wrote: | | There are progression leagues on Fumbbl that does what Chingis wants, which is the tabletop league experience. Black Box is fine as it is. |
I do get the kind of point you're making that one shouldn't play one type of Blood Bowl and wonder why it isn't another type of Blood Bowl, but I disagree with the specific analysis of what type of Blood Bowl Blackbox "is".
Blackbox as far as I can see fundamentally is League Blood Bowl. You start with a fresh team, you get SPPs and injuries, your team progresses, you re-draft at season's end. The BBT even specifically emphasises the seasonal experience of playing with a team.
It's not Exhibition Blood Bowl or Matched Play Blood Bowl. The way everything works (team purchase, skills, injuries etc.) does not match either of those formats. What Blackbox mimics in almost every way is League play, with the sole exception of opponent choice.
Now, opponent choice cannot strictly match any of the formats. The question is what format should the one-off match-making experience (which is fixed, that's the fundamental point of Blackbox!) try to most closely approximate? It seems most sensible to me that it ought to try to give an experience that best approximates the format that the entire of the rest of a Blackbox team's experience (everything except matchmaking) is based upon. That is the League play Blood Bowl format. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Dec 14, 2025 - 22:26 |
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| Zelmor wrote: | | We should accept that Black Box is a certain kind of competition for a certain kind of coach type. It cannot be everything for everyone all at once. |
For me, what made Fumbbl great was being able to play that kind of league style ball in the old Ranked & Box divisions.
The community seemed more vibrant, the Majors were more of a big deal, there seemed to be more "characters", the "competitive" divisions seemed to be much more fun. Maybe I'm just missing something.
It feels a bit sad for people to say "just play leagues". We used to have the best league in the world. 
It used to work for competitive coaches, narrative coaches and competitive and narrative coaches.
The old, more narrative coaches will probably remember a lot of these names. Some fondly. Some less so 
So, yeah. The rules have changed, the people have changed, the culture has changed.
Sure, I do play leagues. But I'd hope to come back one day.
I'd only really be coming back for S2+.
S2+ Trophy? Option to transfer teams to [L]eague after completing seasons?
Maybe one day. |
_________________
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Dec 15, 2025 - 04:15 |
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Koadah, I think that if they implement something fairly faithful to what GW has in mind, you'll find something worth doing. No, you can't build the giant teams, but building happens faster and there are more philosophies leading to different routes to success, which is not the same thing as there just being more routes to success. Like, in Box/C as we have it, efficiency is king, but the way they've structured it, it's one way to look at a big complicated puzzle with a bunch of different inputs. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Dec 15, 2025 - 07:26 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | Koadah, I think that if they implement something fairly faithful to what GW has in mind, you'll find something worth doing. No, you can't build the giant teams, but building happens faster and there are more philosophies leading to different routes to success, which is not the same thing as there just being more routes to success. Like, in Box/C as we have it, efficiency is king, but the way they've structured it, it's one way to look at a big complicated puzzle with a bunch of different inputs. |
I think that implementing what GW has in mind is probably the main problem.
| JackassRampant wrote: |
This edition is growing on me, but it's obvious to me now that it has to be approached with fresh eyes, and as welcome as the similarities to 2020 are, and that edition to 2016 and in turn to CRP, you can't let this superficial resemblance lull you into thinking the old logic still applies. It's gotta be taken for what it is, not for what we're used to. |
How active is S2+ now? Do you think it will be more active under 2025?
If you allow switching to [L]eague only after 2+ full seasons, people then at least have pay their dues with one or more S2+ seasons before winning release.
Some more may at least try it and may actually stick.
My favourite team started in the old Ranked division under LRB4 and still plays.
It would be interesting to know why the transfer option was removed.
It did return briefly as kick starter prize I think.
£10 for each team moved? Sounds fair? 
But, OK. Maybe just accept the division.  |
_________________
Secret League rosters, old style skill progression, no re-draft or 2016 rules. Or... 4000k All Stars. 7th January! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 15, 2025 - 11:35 |
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| Chingis wrote: |
Blackbox as far as I can see fundamentally is League Blood Bowl. You start with a fresh team, you get SPPs and injuries, your team progresses, you re-draft at season's end. The BBT even specifically emphasises the seasonal experience of playing with a team. |
To be accurate, it's perpetual League Blood Bowl.
The teams don't play vs scheduled opponents within a fixed number of games (with roughly the same number of games played) and winning a game in the Box is less important (relatively speaking) than doing it in a private scheduled League, where there is an overall winner in the end.
It was like that even with previous rulesets, but with Seasons the building aspect (which was fun in itself) it has been almost totally removed.
So, you play over and over again, but without the building reward and without the real scheduled private League competititive factor.
Keeping teams in check makes sense, monster teams break the game, but there was no need to restart at low TV after X matches over and over again. |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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Dec 15, 2025 - 12:53 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | To be accurate, it's perpetual League Blood Bowl. |
No, it used to be perpetual league Blood Bowl, because the Ranked division was perpetual league play and the Blackbox was just an auto-scheduler for that division.
But now it's non-perpetual league Blood Bowl. We have seasons and re-drafting.
But the key bit of the original "perpetual league" was the league bit! The Blackbox teams have never been anything other than league play in terms of rules application for team building and progression.
The TS, later TV, matching was because the perpetual bit of the "perpetual league" broke a lot of things in those league play rules which have always been written for non-perpetual league play. Teams were not TV matched because they were fundamentally playing Matched Play Blood Bowl or Exhibition Play Blood Bowl, they were TV matched because they were playing League Play Blood Bowl but perpetual online leagues broke some elements of League Play Blood Bowl.
That is no longer necessary now the teams are non-perpetual League Play Blood Bowl teams.
***
In terms of fun and team-building, that's the whole point of age-matching! Age-matching opponents would mean that the individual games are important (because your performance has more ramifications for the rest of your season as well as the one-off game) and you'd be allowed to decide to build rather than only be terrified of "bloat" the entire time. And you'd get matched for games towards the end of a season just as quickly with a big team as with a stifled, min-maxed team. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 15, 2025 - 13:30 |
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| Chingis wrote: | | But now it's non-perpetual league Blood Bowl. We have seasons and re-drafting. |
At the end of a Season there is no winner in the Box.
At the end of a Season in a scheduled League there is a winner. There is more emphasy and time pressure on winning games in a private League.
It's different.
Even if a team gets trimmed down after 15 games, there is no final goal to achieve and a team keeps on playing forever, teams don't disappear at the end of a Season, that's clearly a perpetual element.
The Season is just a periodic TV trim with a fancy name.
Matching on age, to get back on topic, is not a good way to pair teams.
Teams are better off paired by the roster they can field, not by their age.
It can work in a private League, where there is a Commissioner and teams are supposed to start together and play together the same number of games, more or less, but not in a perpetual League like the Box, where a team could have played 31 games and another one just 16.
It's unlikely that private League teams are going to be played for more than 30 games, in the Box you can find teams older than 30 games.
The teams' age gap in the Box can be huge, unlike in private Leagues.
I guess people would just retire teams after some games and start new ones, even more than now, if team age were used.
It's not nice to be at a disadvantage just because your team is old, regardless of its actual potential. |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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Dec 15, 2025 - 13:50 |
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What disadvantage for being an old team are you talking about? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 15, 2025 - 14:08 |
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If you use age-matching in the Box, being an old team is supposed to be a penalty (because it gives Inducements to the opponent).
At least, this is what I understood. |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2025 - 14:25 |
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You misunderstood.
Inducements are based on TV. All age-matching would do is decide which team you play. Inducements would work exactly as normal. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2025 - 14:34 |
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Thanks!
How age-matching would decide the teams' pairing in the Box?
May you elaborate with an example? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2025 - 17:11 |
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| Chingis wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | To be accurate, it's perpetual League Blood Bowl. |
No, it used to be perpetual league Blood Bowl, because the Ranked division was perpetual league play and the Blackbox was just an auto-scheduler for that division.
But now it's non-perpetual league Blood Bowl. We have seasons and re-drafting. |
I'm using "perpetual" to mean literally "never ending". A season might end but the league does not. Unlike leagues that run for maybe one, two, three seasons then reset.
| Chingis wrote: |
Teams were not TV matched because they were fundamentally playing Matched Play Blood Bowl or Exhibition Play Blood Bowl, they were TV matched because they were playing League Play Blood Bowl but perpetual online leagues broke some elements of League Play Blood Bowl. |
IMO, TV matching has always been broken to some extent. TS was always going to be "wrong" to some extent, but also a pain to maintain.
We have TV matching because coaches felt it was fairer. Whether it is or isn't is not as important as what people feel.
You can get away with things in a small leagues where people know each other and may actually be friends, that don't work so well in a big, anonymous division where some people won't speak at all or may be terse or even rude.
Some people won't like meeting a bigger team. Some won't like meeting an equal TV team that is is horribly min/maxed. Some won't like meeting a smaller team with powrful stars/wizard etc.
What it is really about is picking the option that will scare the fewest people away from the division. |
_________________
Secret League rosters, old style skill progression, no re-draft or 2016 rules. Or... 4000k All Stars. 7th January! |
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