FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

ph0enyx13

Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Posted: May 07, 2026 - 20:53

CrisisChris wrote:

This would be a nice counter for Blodgestep at the sideline: 'Grenzy'

I read that as Gretzky and got really confused for a second and thought there was a vengabus like slang for a player type based on the fact that it looks like pro elves are wearing hockey masks

MercutioT wrote:

On the original topic—As long as we're dreaming, I wish discounted random skills were still a thing. Sad

I only care about goblins, of course, as they are the best team. But it's honestly barely worth it to get Block on my trolls. It's 50K! That's more than a whole goblin! That's a whole Bribe or Keg that I'll be missing out on! And Pro at 40k isn't much better.

Rolled a random S for my Fanatic and got Mighty Blow—typically the best possible outcome. But... it's 30K! Almost the value of a whole player, for a skill on a player that might only stick around for a couple turns.

And what kind of ball-carrier is even worth it?? A Goblin with block is 90k! Add Sure Hands and it goes up to 130. That's like more than 10% of your team's TV in a ST2 player that can be removed by a strong wind.

I appreciate what they were trying to do with 'Elite Skills', but it's definitely not perfect yet.

I feel like the current skill pricing with the elite skills being 30k and doubles being an SPP cost AND 50/40k was designed to benefit NAF/Res tournament runners and wasn't really designed for league players in mind. because they seem over costed, especially compared to stats, but the cost for elites, singles, doubles and stats all make sense for NAF/res style pick a skill rules, especially ones that might allow only the really low tier races to pick a stat. I also think it's funny because they did the elite stat tax and then really buffed dodge with the changes to dwarves. I'd say that they nerfed guard too. idk how many people are going to play dorfs because even if they were stronger, they aren't people's favorite team to play as mechanically, but Amazons and OWA both have defensive.

JuggerGonzo

Joined: Dec 23, 2014

Posted: May 09, 2026 - 22:21

Elite skills are priced correctly, you can clearly see that as they are still popular. We can argue about adding low tier low cost skills. The problem are stats, low cost, easy to get, freak min maxing is destroying any balance.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 09, 2026 - 22:32

Yes, I find a bit sad teams with fewer (due to BB 2025 rosters) positionals, but more commonly stat boosted than in the past.
+ST (other stats too, but +ST should be very rare) is common, to the point that players don't look as special as in the past.
I'd really like a shorter Season, would make the teams looking more normal.

Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: May 10, 2026 - 04:25

Honestly, if anything, block and dodge are still underpriced compared to the benefit they give. Guard maybe too. Mighty blow probably not, its the least deserving of the "elite" skills.

But I've taken a view in this edition that elite skills kind of set a noob trap, where new players will think they are getting a discount by not taking elite skills, when really if I'm giving up 50k to you because I have 5 more block than you, I'm probably coming out ahead on that. Yes, there is value to be gained taking like wrestle over block on some players, but overall, I'd say at least half the elite skills are still undercosted. Not that I want them to be priced higher, I actually would prefer no skills have the elite tax just for simplicity (and that I think the game is honestly better when a fair number of players have block so you aren't just forced to take 1/9 failures every block. I like blocking), just that they are that much better than normal skills.

Last edited by Drrek on May 10, 2026; edited 1 time in total

JackassRampant

Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Posted: May 10, 2026 - 04:49

I think you're right if you compare elite skills to regular skills, but not if you compare either to stats. That's my point. Also, secondary skills are overpriced, elite or otherwise. I don't think anyone's arguing against two-tiered skill pricing, just that the baselines for both tiers are off with respect to characteristic increases and starting options.

_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor.

ph0enyx13

Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Posted: May 10, 2026 - 11:28

JackassRampant wrote:

I think you're right if you compare elite skills to regular skills, but not if you compare either to stats. That's my point. Also, secondary skills are overpriced, elite or otherwise. I don't think anyone's arguing against two-tiered skill pricing, just that the baselines for both tiers are off with respect to characteristic increases and starting options.

this. the characteristic increases are too cheap and too easy to get and the doubles tax is too high, to the point where you rarely see doubles outside of block mummies on BBT teams, but there are tons of stat freaks. The pricing, but in terms of SPP and tv, makes more sense for a res tournament where buying a double costs you a skill and only some stunty teams are allowed to buy stat ups sometimes.

ben_awesome

Joined: May 11, 2016

Posted: May 11, 2026 - 04:05

block has been too powerful for the whole time, splitting the skill so when you hit and when you get hit would be my choice to make it better.

giving both the offensive and defensive version to blitzers would reinforce the point of them being the 'best' bb players.

Kransky

Joined: Sep 12, 2005

Posted: May 11, 2026 - 06:48

ph0enyx13 wrote:

CrisisChris wrote:

This would be a nice counter for Blodgestep at the sideline: 'Grenzy'

I read that as Gretzky and got really confused for a second and thought there was a vengabus like slang for a player type based on the fact that it looks like pro elves are wearing hockey masks

MercutioT wrote:

On the original topic—As long as we're dreaming, I wish discounted random skills were still a thing. Sad

I only care about goblins, of course, as they are the best team. But it's honestly barely worth it to get Block on my trolls. It's 50K! That's more than a whole goblin! That's a whole Bribe or Keg that I'll be missing out on! And Pro at 40k isn't much better.

Rolled a random S for my Fanatic and got Mighty Blow—typically the best possible outcome. But... it's 30K! Almost the value of a whole player, for a skill on a player that might only stick around for a couple turns.

And what kind of ball-carrier is even worth it?? A Goblin with block is 90k! Add Sure Hands and it goes up to 130. That's like more than 10% of your team's TV in a ST2 player that can be removed by a strong wind.

I appreciate what they were trying to do with 'Elite Skills', but it's definitely not perfect yet.

I feel like the current skill pricing with the elite skills being 30k and doubles being an SPP cost AND 50/40k was designed to benefit NAF/Res tournament runners and wasn't really designed for league players in mind. because they seem over costed, especially compared to stats, but the cost for elites, singles, doubles and stats all make sense for NAF/res style pick a skill rules, especially ones that might allow only the really low tier races to pick a stat. I also think it's funny because they did the elite stat tax and then really buffed dodge with the changes to dwarves. I'd say that they nerfed guard too. idk how many people are going to play dorfs because even if they were stronger, they aren't people's favorite team to play as mechanically, but Amazons and OWA both have defensive.

Wow, have to chip in my 2 cents that I'm very, very, happy to pay 40k for Block on a Big Guy in the old rules and also happy to pay 50k in the nwe rules. It really is that good.

Block allows Big Guys to do one of thier best thing: blocking. We're already paying for thier St5 and MB and this 'activates' those skills and also partually cancels out loner.

I've never sat there and said 'wow, I would of won if only the opponent had one less goblin' because at a certain point each extra goblin had dimishing returns.

I HAVE won so many games because the opponent rolled double both down on the big guy at the wrong time.

MercutioT

Joined: Mar 19, 2015

Posted: May 11, 2026 - 14:34

Block is great and all, but if you'd really rather have Block on your trolls than start your Goblins with 2 Bribes, then... I dunno, man. I think you might want to get a few more games in. That theorizing needs a little more contact with reality.

The 'best thing' for a big guy is very often not blocking. In the case of a Rat Ogre, Kroxigor, or Rotspawn, it's often just not activating and tying up multiple players. In the case of a Troll, it's very often just taking hits.

The cost of skills in this edition has made it genuinely suboptimal for many teams to skill up their players, because every skill needs to be considered against its potential value in Kegs, Bribes or Star Players. Any teams with critical positionals (Lizards, Underworld, Orcs, etc) are likely better served with 2 Kegs than with 3 instances of Block.

but, perhaps a discussion for another thread.

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: May 11, 2026 - 14:44

MercutioT wrote:

Block is great and all, but if you'd really rather have Block on your trolls than start your Goblins with 2 Bribes, then... I dunno, man. I think you might want to get a few more games in. That theorizing needs a little more contact with reality.

The 'best thing' for a big guy is very often not blocking. In the case of a Rat Ogre, Kroxigor, or Rotspawn, it's often just not activating and tying up multiple players. In the case of a Troll, it's very often just taking hits.

The cost of skills in this edition has made it genuinely suboptimal for many teams to skill up their players, because every skill needs to be considered against its potential value in Kegs, Bribes or Star Players. Any teams with critical positionals (Lizards, Underworld, Orcs, etc) are likely better served with 2 Kegs than with 3 instances of Block.

but, perhaps a discussion for another thread.

I think the answer is more dependent on the environment you play in. If you play in C (game finder) then you can pick, and guarantee specific inducements, and in that environment leaning into weapons and bribes etc... makes more sense.

If you play in Box you have no guarantee of playing higher TV teams, so Block is better than hoping you are the lower TV team. So leaning into reliability makes more sense in that environment.

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Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: May 11, 2026 - 14:59

MercutioT wrote:

Block is great and all, but if you'd really rather have Block on your trolls than start your Goblins with 2 Bribes, then... I dunno, man. I think you might want to get a few more games in. That theorizing needs a little more contact with reality.

The 'best thing' for a big guy is very often not blocking. In the case of a Rat Ogre, Kroxigor, or Rotspawn, it's often just not activating and tying up multiple players. In the case of a Troll, it's very often just taking hits.

The cost of skills in this edition has made it genuinely suboptimal for many teams to skill up their players, because every skill needs to be considered against its potential value in Kegs, Bribes or Star Players. Any teams with critical positionals (Lizards, Underworld, Orcs, etc) are likely better served with 2 Kegs than with 3 instances of Block.

but, perhaps a discussion for another thread.

I would absolutely never want 2 kegs on lizards over 3 block saureese. I play a fair bit of lizards, and like to think I do decently well with them, and I think you are just wrong there.

I suspect the same is true for orcs as well.

MercutioT

Joined: Mar 19, 2015

Posted: May 11, 2026 - 15:12

Garion wrote:

MercutioT wrote:

Block is great and all, but if you'd really rather have Block on your trolls than start your Goblins with 2 Bribes, then... I dunno, man. I think you might want to get a few more games in. That theorizing needs a little more contact with reality.

The 'best thing' for a big guy is very often not blocking. In the case of a Rat Ogre, Kroxigor, or Rotspawn, it's often just not activating and tying up multiple players. In the case of a Troll, it's very often just taking hits.

The cost of skills in this edition has made it genuinely suboptimal for many teams to skill up their players, because every skill needs to be considered against its potential value in Kegs, Bribes or Star Players. Any teams with critical positionals (Lizards, Underworld, Orcs, etc) are likely better served with 2 Kegs than with 3 instances of Block.

but, perhaps a discussion for another thread.

I think the answer is more dependent on the environment you play in. If you play in C (game finder) then you can pick, and guarantee specific inducements, and in that environment leaning into weapons and bribes etc... makes more sense.

If you play in Box you have no guarantee of playing higher TV teams, so Block is better than hoping you are the lower TV team. So leaning into reliability makes more sense in that environment.

Hmm... I'm not sure this analysis follows.
If the TVs are purely matched, then it's all good——whatever will be will be.
If they're mismatched, I'd rather be the underdog, but I certainly would never want to be the overdog; talking Goblins specifically (the initial touchstone, though any bashy team might be similar), if I'm under, I'm getting Bribes, but if I'm over, I'm giving Kegs, which is terrible as it dramatically cuts down the effectiveness of my removals.
So, no matter the situation, I'm rewarded for keeping a low TV and being stingy with all but the most high-impact skills.

Drrek wrote:

I would absolutely never want 2 kegs on lizards over 3 block saureese. I play a fair bit of lizards, and like to think I do decently well with them, and I think you are just wrong there.

I suspect the same is true for orcs as well.

That's cool. I support you. In my experience, having an a couple early KOs on saurus (e.g. defending against bash teams in the first drive) means that the rest of the game is often decided by those KO rolls, which I think is too dicey. Haven't played lizards in this newest edition, though, so maybe such on-pitch attrition is at a new historical low.

Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: May 11, 2026 - 15:21

Having KOs on Saureese was always bad, but they are AV10+ pieces, you just have to trust that armor. And if the bash team is taking mighty blow, they are also spending 30k on ever piece that does that, you are going even on TV spends.

Not having block will make every drive suck for you as lizards. Kegs are much, much less likely to be impactful.

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: May 11, 2026 - 15:49

MercutioT wrote:

Garion wrote:

MercutioT wrote:

Block is great and all, but if you'd really rather have Block on your trolls than start your Goblins with 2 Bribes, then... I dunno, man. I think you might want to get a few more games in. That theorizing needs a little more contact with reality.

The 'best thing' for a big guy is very often not blocking. In the case of a Rat Ogre, Kroxigor, or Rotspawn, it's often just not activating and tying up multiple players. In the case of a Troll, it's very often just taking hits.

The cost of skills in this edition has made it genuinely suboptimal for many teams to skill up their players, because every skill needs to be considered against its potential value in Kegs, Bribes or Star Players. Any teams with critical positionals (Lizards, Underworld, Orcs, etc) are likely better served with 2 Kegs than with 3 instances of Block.

but, perhaps a discussion for another thread.

I think the answer is more dependent on the environment you play in. If you play in C (game finder) then you can pick, and guarantee specific inducements, and in that environment leaning into weapons and bribes etc... makes more sense.

If you play in Box you have no guarantee of playing higher TV teams, so Block is better than hoping you are the lower TV team. So leaning into reliability makes more sense in that environment.

Hmm... I'm not sure this analysis follows.

If the TVs are purely matched, then it's all good——whatever will be will be.

If they're mismatched, I'd rather be the underdog, but I certainly would never want to be the overdog; talking Goblins specifically (the initial touchstone, though any bashy team might be similar), if I'm under, I'm getting Bribes, but if I'm over, I'm giving Kegs, which is terrible as it dramatically cuts down the effectiveness of my removals.

So, no matter the situation, I'm rewarded for keeping a low TV and being stingy with all but the most high-impact skills.

I'm not sure you reply makes sense? In box you do not get to pick if you are the underdog or overdog or even. The games are matched for you. Therefore taking block makes your team more reliable. Keeping low doesnt work in the box because there are always teams that can be lower...

For example :
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4687870
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4688835
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4692200

Also if your opponent is 10k lower than you they can spend an additional 50k... which happens all the time.

edit: obviously you don't want a bloaty team, that goes without saying, you need to get it TV efficient for sure, but having block on both trolls is fine.

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Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: May 11, 2026 - 18:01

All this just reminds me that goblins should be allowed to roster bribes