| Poll |
| ideas for Box MM |
| tick option to pair pure Box teams with pure Box teams |
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34% |
[ 15 ] |
| GF teams can't get back to GF once they played a Box match, all their future matches will have to be played in the Box |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
| 1 GF match allowed per 2 Box matches played by a team |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| pie |
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63% |
[ 28 ] |
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| Total Votes : 44 |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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 Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 04:21 |
 
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As the coach of the Orc team in question... my three freak players (yes, three, not four: I had four ST5, but one was a rookie Troll) had seven stat rolls between them, plus another two on the guy who didn't get that far, and took four +ST, so 4/9 were 1/4 odds, lucky me. I got fairly lucky with the Blitzer, two one-in-four rolls out of three, so that's 13/64, or about 20%. The other Blitzer got two rolls and was on his way to a third, in addition to Mighty Blow, when he suffered a ST bust the game before. His median outcome, frankly, was better than what he ended up with, so we'll say one 20% hit in two, or 36%. It's a little worse than that, but whatever. The two Big 'Uns both got lucky once, with two rolls each: one hit on two rolls is 7/16; both pulling it off is 49/256, or another 20%. So you should expect 7.2% of Orc teams' top three guys to be pimped like mine at that level of SPP.
In 11 Gamefinder games, they've earned 208 SPP, and in 12 Box games they've earned 198. So that's 18.91 vs 16.5, so 2.41 SPP, times 12 games, is 28.92 SPP over. Assuming let's say 21 of it went to those 3 players (a big if) and it was equally distributed (another if, to be fair), you would have run into the exact same team. Truthfully, the margin is in scores and comps: I do more damage in Box games, historically. So my damage dealers would look the same, the difference would be on my Thrower. (Actually, no, I would have redrafted my Leader from last time, so the difference might show up in my record early next season?)
You're complaining that I persevered, earned a bunch of SPP by bashing (39 Cas in 12 Box games, 34 in 11 GF games), took skills where no good stats presented themselves, and got a bit lucky when it counted. IE, no legitimate grounds for complaint. +ST Hits one time in four. I got kinda lucky. You should expect to see half of all Orc teams look like that by the end of season 2, I'm a little bit ahead of the curve, because my 7s and 8s came at the right time (93rd percentile). That's all. Oh, and Brawlin' Brutes really rewards maximizing hits, which has long been my thing.
You should expect to occasionally play that team in this edition, no matter how it's built, if it has redrafted once after 22 games. One in 14 will be so lucky, assuming good development. (I did roll twice into Stunties, once each way, so maybe it's less, but then people often abandon a team after one season if it doesn't look good, so maybe it's more. Anyway, expect freak players now, and yes, it's still Blood Bowl.) |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 11:59 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: |
In 11 Gamefinder games, they've earned 208 SPP, and in 12 Box games they've earned 198. So that's 18.91 vs 16.5, so 2.41 SPP, times 12 games, is 28.92 SPP over. Assuming let's say 21 of it went to those 3 players (a big if) and it was equally distributed (another if, to be fair), you would have run into the exact same team. |
The Orc team would have gained roughly the same SPPs in the Box, but would it have suffered more damage as well, by playing only Box games vs unknown opponents? I didn't want to bother but now I will copy here the match list played by the Orc team, in the order the matches were played:
game 1 GF: Goblin, Emerging Star (really? first game vs Goblins of an Emerging Star?! It would be harder to be so lucky in the Box).
game 2 GF: Nurgle, Star
game 3 GF: Norse, Super Star
game 4 BB: Orc, Super Star
game 5 BB: Chorfs, Mega-Star
game 6 GF: Dwarf, Star
game 7 GF: Nurgle, Star
game 8 BB: Necro, Super Star
game 9 GF: Norse, Star
game 10 BB: Necro, Super Star
game 11 BB: Nurgle, Super Star
game 12 GF: IN, Mega-Star
game 13 GF: DE, Super Star
game 14 BB: Black Orc, Super Star
game 15 GF: Nurgle, Star
game 16 GF: Khorne, Star
game 17 GF: Ogre, Super Star
game 18 BB: Khorne, Super Star
game 19 BB: Halflings, Star
game 20 BB: Khorne, Super Star
game 21 BB: Human, Super Star
game 22 BB: Nurgle, Star
game 23 BB: HE, Legend
I don't want to be boring but, if people check my own HE team, they will see that I faced way more Mega-Stars than the Orc team (thus most of my matches had better opponents). Of course the Orc team got farmed with lots of Casualties, most of its games were played vs Super Star coaches or lower! I faced more Mega-Stars with my HE in the Box. That means, fewer SPPs gained, more damage suffered (good coaches reduce the blocks suffered, don't let the opponent win 3-0, deal more damage etc.)
| JackassRampant wrote: | | Truthfully, the margin is in scores and comps: I do more damage in Box games, historically. |
Yes, once your team has been farmed via GF games yes, then you do more damage. Would you do the same damage by playing ALL your Orc games only in the Box? Farming a team by playing the early games on GF then playing Box games (when the team gained skills and stats) will make the Casualties easier. Play 100% games in the Box, where you might face, on average, better coaches (as my HE match history shows) and unfavourable match-ups.
| JackassRampant wrote: |
no legitimate grounds for complaint. |
The simple fact you could pick your opponents and I didn't is a super legitimate ground for complaint. If you want to be matched with me, walk down the same path as me (blind MM). That's the point. No starting game vs Emerging Star Goblin team and most games played vs Super Stars or lower, I didn't have that luxury.
| JackassRampant wrote: | | You should expect to see half of all Orc teams look like that by the end of season 2 |
I played hundreds of Box games vs Season 2 teams, no, it's not a common sight, if the teams played most of their games in the Box.
| JackassRampant wrote: | | You should expect to occasionally play that team in this edition, no matter how it's built, if it has redrafted once after 22 games. |
Nice, but I don't want to play vs teams which achieved that roster by playing on GF.
As I said, I don't want to be matched vs somebody who could have picked their games and built their rosters more easily than me. If I find a monster Box-only team at least I'm sure that the coach earned it.
You could have picked or not your games (I'm not in your mind to be sure), I'm not even pointing the finger at you, but at the GF system which, potentially, allows to pick easy opponents and gain a farm advantage.
You could have not picked, but other people could and actually do it.
Anyway, I'm sure that, if you had played all your games in the Box, the average level of your opponents would have been higher than the average GF opponents' level.
Everybody knows that on GF either you (rhetoric "you") get picked by Legends and Mega-Stars or pick/accept offers by Super Stars or lower. That's how things work there.
Unless you are open to be picked by Legends and Mega-Stars, if you want to play you have to accept the offers by easy opponents. So, even if you are not actively picking/you don't want to pick, you will play vs lower ranked opponents or don't play at all. In the Box it's harder to play game after game vs low rank coaches. |
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DoctorMidnight
Joined: Jul 07, 2022
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 12:28 |
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@MattDakka:
Our point is simple to express: sportsmanship.
But, unfortunately, it's very hard to grasp (or very easy to ignore) for a lot of people..... |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 12:33 |
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What do you mean? Would you care to elaborate? |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 14:02 |
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Can you continue on private messages and lock this thread. Its been 5 pages on complaining on who plays who.
This is as pointless as the other season 2 thread, both keep bouncin up on front page and take room for other posts that people might post that actually have any meaning.
Luv.
Merreh |
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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 14:09 |
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Is MerryZ an admin? No.
Is MerryZ the one who decides what is pointless (universally, not for him) and it's not? No.
Is MerryZ a guy who says that this thread bounces while he contributes to make it bounce with a useless comment? Yes.
For me what you write is pointless, instead. You never add something useful.
Your role is popping up from time to time to add useless posts.
If you are not interested, don't bother people in this thread and let it die.
If you think the thread must be locked, ask an admin, don't spam here.
You play Season 1 teams, the format which is the zenith of BB and you are not interested in Season 2+, we got it. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 14:20 |
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DoctorMidnight
Joined: Jul 07, 2022
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 14:23 |
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Once again, it's quite simple.
And you already developped our main point in a very detailed and convincing way.
To sum it up:
You (Matt) and me, we would like to see the Box becoming a fairer place - you (rhetorical!) coach in the Box an incredible team, with over-skilled stat freaks? Good for you, and 100 % acceptable to me.... as long as your team has been entirely built in the Box. And nowhere else (i.e. on noobs' shoulders. I call a spade a spade).
Earn your Legend players fair and square, and enjoy becoming a megalodon in the white sharks' pool, but ONLY if you deserve it. Sportsmanship in a nuttshell.
Otherwise, just go play elsewhere. Find some place to get "shady" wins, enjoy being a kindergarten predator if it's your jam, but don't "polute" the real deal.
For you (Matt) and me, that concept is easy to grasp, almost obvious, and deserves to be defended on both moral and intellectual fields.
For some other coaches (2 out of 3, according to the poll), Fairness (Sportsmanship, etc... label it the way you want) is either:
- a sincerely hard-to-grasp idea. Some of your opponents in this debate seem to be honest when they say they don't see where the problem is. They honestly ask numbers and tableaux to get convinced... but, as you know, numbers and tableaux only tell the story you want them to tell. Both sides use them - a honest, but endless debate due to the nature of the tools used.
That part of the debate could be entitled "Is Sportsmanship a MATHEMATICAL value able to make your experience of Blood Bowl better?". Pure science. But hard to prove...or dismiss!
- or, and that's imho the worst part of this thread, Sportsmanship is a moral value that some people perfectly understand... but deliberately dismiss in the name of victory.
That part of the debate could be entitled "Is Sportsmanship a MORAL value able to make your experience of Blood Bowl better?" A more philosophical debate. in this part, morality is more important than numbers. But what if your opponents don't give a shit about morality and ethics, huh? The debate is closed (and lost!) even before its start.
It's sad, even frustrating, but not against the current rules of Fummbl.
Common values are the bedrock of any community.
Imho, that's why Fummbl is a "shaky" place - the only value federating all of us here is..... Blood Bowl. And... what else?
With such a slim common language, it's sometimes hard to understand each other.... even harder to build something.
Anyway! hope it answers your question, Matt - writing while eating is not an easy sport! Nor a good idea, probably!
Bon appetit! |
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Last edited by DoctorMidnight on Sep 03, 2026; edited 2 times in total |
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DoctorMidnight
Joined: Jul 07, 2022
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 14:32 |
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| koadah wrote: |
I disagree.
I think that the point is "fairness".
It appears that the site owner has prioritised the ease of getting games over fairness.
Unless it can be shown that this kind of fairness will result in more games, the status quo will likely remain. |
In my book, "Fairness" and "Sportsmanship" are (almost) twins.
I entirely agree with your 2nd point ("getting more games"). Quantity over Quality.......The Post-Modern Age zeitgeist! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 14:41 |
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| DoctorMidnight wrote: |
Anyway! hope it answers your question, Matt - writing while eating is not an easy sport! Nor a good idea, probably!
Bon appetit! |
Thank you for the detailed explanation.
I imagined it, but I wanted to be sure I got it right. 
About getting a game: I could get more "games" on GF by picking noobs and easy match-ups or any unfair offer by pickers, but in my book those are not games.
For me it's not important how many games I can play, I do care about how they are arranged and with teams in my same environment, when I play for CR points.
I have nothing to say against unranked GF games.
If people can't play in the Box due to living in a low traffic time zone they could just play unranked games in League division.
After all, if they are only interested in playing a game, that should work.
They want the cake and eat it too.
Playing not very competitive games and farming a team which then can be activated in an environment where opponent teams played, on average, harder games. It may be a deliberately-sought advantage or not, but an advantage nonetheless, an advantage which could be radically removed. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 03, 2026; edited 5 times in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 14:46 |
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| DoctorMidnight wrote: | | koadah wrote: |
I disagree.
I think that the point is "fairness".
It appears that the site owner has prioritised the ease of getting games over fairness.
Unless it can be shown that this kind of fairness will result in more games, the status quo will likely remain. |
In my book, and for the sake of this debate, please read in my post "Fairness" and "Sportsmanship" as (almost) twins.
I entirely agree with your 2nd point ("getting more games"). Quantity over Quality.......The Post-Modern Age zeitgeist! |
I'd say that "Sportsmanship" is something that you impose on yourself. "Fairness" is something that the league can try to impose.
As you say, we won't all agree on either so we have rules to try to impose at least some order.  |
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Official + Secret League rosters, old style skill progression, NO re-draft OR full 2016 rules. OR... 4000TV All Star Bowl - ALWAYS recruiting! |
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DoctorMidnight
Joined: Jul 07, 2022
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 14:59 |
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In French, we have a word which combines Sportsmanship and Fairness : "Fair Play".
(Yeah, I know: we use a goddam English word. Just don't ask!) |
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DoctorMidnight
Joined: Jul 07, 2022
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 15:04 |
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| koadah wrote: | | As you say, we won't all agree on either so we have rules to try to impose at least some order. |
Oh boy.
Koadah's trying to sneak some porn video showing a naked Poor Man's Gengis Khan in a bdsm cage.
What world we're living in! 
You're the living proof that rules are indeed needed when Morality is dead! lol |
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DoctorMidnight
Joined: Jul 07, 2022
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 15:13 |
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On a more serious note:
At the end of the day, I'm afraid Big Daddy K' is right - this site prioritizes the easy access to games over Fairness. And it won't change.
We're standing for a lost cause. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2026 - 15:17 |
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| DoctorMidnight wrote: |
We're standing for a lost cause. |
That's what romantic, idealistic, deluded people (and Don Quijote) do!  |
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