| Poll |
| ideas for Box MM |
| tick option to pair pure Box teams with pure Box teams |
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37% |
[ 20 ] |
| GF teams can't get back to GF once they played a Box match, all their future matches will have to be played in the Box |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
| 1 GF match allowed per 2 Box matches played by a team |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| pie |
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60% |
[ 32 ] |
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| Total Votes : 53 |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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 Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 04:53 |
 
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Does it motivate people to play a second season? Whatever the answer is to the problem, it's not something that's being done, right? Because Irondwarf, in its current state, ain't solving this problem.
I have no idea what motivates people to stuff like this. I'm driven by a beaver-like need to chew on the system, but I don't think most people are that way. I don't think you can fire people up into running it sustainably though, until you've smoked out the problems.
I suspect the sheer awfulness of recovering from redraft puts a lot of people off of it. I did propose age-based matchmaking as a solution, but for the moment I don't know if that would do it, because we just don't have the volume. Like, we're supposed to have TV-based matchmaking, but the TV variances are absurd and stupid, and that's not a fault of the system: there's just not enough action running through it.
We must grow. That'll make all this go smoother. It's time to spread out and recruit FUMBBL'ers from our TT communities, and encourage league coaches to get involved in the project of making C Div better. (I'm talking to you with that last bit, Koadah, but to everyone with the growth thing.)
There's a FLGS that sometimes runs BB a couple miles from my house. They're jarheads who don't offer a TTRPG scene, so I don't shop there, an they're bad about communication too, but they like BB because it's the kind of thing Marines do. I'll stay on them, see if we can get a TT league going, recruit some coaches. There's also a tourney later this month: if my body will hack it, I'll go and talk to people. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 07:19 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | For Season 2+ teams there is the IRONDWARF Trophy too. |
Wow! I think this comment really does encapsulate something well.
For Season 2+ there is not the Irondwarf trophy.
Every match by necessity has a loser (in Irondwarf terms, two draw-ers count as one loser, so yes, every game has one loser in that sense!). The average team will be out of the Irondwarf trophy by game six. By game fifteen, I'm not going to work out the maths, but the percentage of live teams will be vanishingly small.
So what is true is to say this instead:
| Quote: | | For a vanishingly small fraction of teams (and those by necessity all played by the same vanishingly small number of people) there is the IRONDWARF Trophy in Season 2+ as well as in Season 1. |
You can't design a system that you intend to remain popular around the experience of a tiny percentage of people. Even if that tiny percentage were the people selfishly designing it, they need other people in the system for it to work and thus for their little niche environment to even exist.
So, what is the draw of Season 2+ Blackbox specifically as a play format? Not for the miniscule percentage of teams that are Irondwarf contenders after fifteen games, but for teams in general? If you want to hold someone specific in mind while you answer this, I would suggest imagining a team at the other end of the spectrum: one which was out of Irondwarf contention well before the match six average mark. |
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CrisisChris
Joined: Dec 11, 2023
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 09:37 |
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I guess it was mentioned more than once now (from different coaches) that the underlying of S2+ blackbox is a lack of volume. A bigger coach-base would (at least partially) reduce the number of games with a TV gap that is just not fun to play for the underdog.
If I am not mistaken Christer once told that BBT and even IDT were created out of the idea to increase team creation in general and blackbox games specifically. And it was successful. At least for season 1.
I am not a fan of forcing people to do so something. So, the idea of allowing ‘blackbox-only’ teams to all FUMBBL majors is nothing I would promote.
To me it seems we are looking for an incentive that makes people ‘want to play’ season 2+. So, in general I think Matt’s idea to look for current issues and provide a solution is a good approach. I just do not agree with the solution because it addresses a very niche aspect and it contradicts the problem of missing game volume by reducing it further.
Maybe offering one or two blackbox-only FUMMBL majors a year would be a nice incentive for some coaches to play season 2+ in blackbox. Accompanied with some minors as well. I have no idea about the work needed to implement a season 2 BBT followed by a bronze gauntlet for example.
For example, this could be a setup:
1) Play BBT ‘n’ with a squad of 4 season 1-teams
2) If applicable play the Steel Gauntlet
3) Wait for the Steel Gauntlet to finish, redraft all 4 teams and move the total Squad to BBT season 2-teams (maybe start this BBT with 2-months offset to the season 1-team BBT)
4) If applicable play the ‘Bronze’ Gauntlet
What do you think, could something like this increase season 2 blackbox game-volume? Or do you have different / additional ideas? |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 09:39 |
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For me, the main appeal of keeping a team going boils down to three things:
1) a post-season-2+ team is gonna be cooler and have more interesting stuff, more fun in tourneys;
2) a team that has survived multiple seasons has history and is interesting;
3) if you're already invested in 1 and 2, it's kinda fun keeping your best players a little longer.
There are probably other reasons that people would do this, but those are the ones that hit me.
Those games aren't fun for the favorite, either, Chingis. Do you cringe because you're getting wrecked, or because you're being told to go out and shoot someone's dog?
Second season gauntlet is a good idea. Maybe just 2-team squads, though, as there's a lot to divide yourself against between that and the BBT and leagues and blah blah. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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CrisisChris
Joined: Dec 11, 2023
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 10:26 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | For me, the main appeal of keeping a team going boils down to three things:
1) a post-season-2+ team is gonna be cooler and have more interesting stuff, more fun in tourneys;
2) a team that has survived multiple seasons has history and is interesting;
3) if you're already invested in 1 and 2, it's kinda fun keeping your best players a little longer.
There are probably other reasons that people would do this, but those are the ones that hit me.
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To me these are also the intersting aspects. The question only is, what would need to change for you to try and play more blackbox instead of GF... despite the obvious match making problem for NA. (increasing game volume in general would adress that, right?) |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 10:30 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | For me, the main appeal of keeping a team going boils down to three things:
1) a post-season-2+ team is gonna be cooler and have more interesting stuff, more fun in tourneys;
2) a team that has survived multiple seasons has history and is interesting;
3) if you're already invested in 1 and 2, it's kinda fun keeping your best players a little longer.
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If that is the main incentive then having to cut to 1350 seems like a bit of a kick in the nuts.
There's no point recruiting new people if you're just going to kick them in the nuts. 
Edit: I suppose they might join a league though.  |
_________________
Official + Secret League rosters, old style skill progression, NO re-draft OR full 2016 rules. OR... 4000TV All Star Bowl - ALWAYS recruiting! |
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CrisisChris
Joined: Dec 11, 2023
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 10:52 |
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There is an incentive already to play season 2+ games in competitive division... compared to leagues. To me there are mainly two reasons:
1) broader coach-/ team base
2) possibility to build teams for official tournaments
I guess there are also people who enjoy the ranking. And there may be other reasons I cannot even imagine.
If I read the statitics correctly the number of games played in competitive (if guess these are the GF games) is about 3 times the number of blackbox games. And these are the numbers overall. I assume if you filter this to season 2+ the factor is not 3 but closer to 10 or something. (a little bit depending where tournament games are counted)
I guess there are two leavers we need to adress then:
1) Increase the overall number of season 2+ games in competitive division (only an assumption, because I do not have the numbers at hand)
2) Increase the share of blackbox games within these broader game base.
Both of these topics may need different soltions. And maybe a reduction of this is one option:
| koadah wrote: |
If that is the main incentive then having to cut to 1350 seems like a bit of a kick in the nuts.
There's no point recruiting new people if you're just going to kick them in the nuts.
|
But I guess there are others as well. Knowing that balancing at higher TV gets much more difficult it somehow seems hard to combine a higher re-draft budget (to allow less nut kicking) and a more appealing / competitive / balanced season 2+ environment.
But maybe that is only because I lack the imagination. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 11:29 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 11:45 |
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About IRONDWARF Trophy: I don't understand Chingis' objection. I have played some IDT with my Season 2+ teams. If a team goes out by game 6 amen, that happens in the BBT too. After some games, if a squad is not doing well, the coach may stop playing it. Anyway, I think that, if people don't want to play Season 2+ teams, it's hard to persuade them, with or without IDT. I guess some coach's motivation is needed to keep on playing teams past Season 1.
About the numbers of people playing in the Box:
If Black Box were the only way to play games, more people would play there.
Instead, people are split into GF (where either they think they can play an easy game, but it's a perception, if they are noobs, or they actively prey upon the noobs to actually have easy games, if they are Legends or Mega-Stars). GF, in other words, is either an illusion of easy/safe games or a place for good coaches to pick the deluded people there.
It's this splitting that reduces the number of games played. There is no need to split such a small userbase.
GF could still be used for any unranked game, but for any match related to CR, tournaments, Trophies etc. only the Box should be allowed.
About huge TV gaps in the Box, I rarely experienced them.
I activate 7 teams at different TVs, from 1200 to 1600, roughly, my games are generally fine, in terms of TV gaps.
The issues arise when I face teams farmed in a totally different environment. Box teams or teams which played most of their games in the Box generally don't make a TV gap match.
That said, for me there could be a TV gap limit in the Box, I'm not against it. For example, 380 TV, Morg's cost. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 08, 2026; edited 1 time in total |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 11:50 |
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How about something as simple as Trophies for old teams? Something like a Trophy for getting to 50 games, or 100 games, as a Blackbox team?
Wouldnt that bring some more players to endure the redrafting and keep the franchise going?
Back in my days when there was only the Ranked Division, having an old team with hundreds of games was cool and people actually cared about it. Some were plagued with cherrypicking of course, but many were not and were respected.
If (as it appears) respect is a huge part of the deal with blackbox, just throwing a bone to people who endure the seasons would be an easy way to keep them in the game, wouldn't it? |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 11:52 |
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| MattDakka wrote: |
About the numbers of people playing in the Box:
If Black Box were the only way to play games, more people would play there
....
GF could still be used for any unranked game, but for any match related to CR, tournaments, Trophies etc. only the Box should be allowed. |
This is why arguing with you is a waste of everyone's time. Once in a while you let your tongue slip and you reveal your true intent, which is "everybody needs to play the way I want or else".
Dude. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 11:55 |
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It's just the rational suggestion to do, not just what I want. It's what I want AND the logical, rational thing too.
The way I play it's fair, logical, rational. I don't pick noobs on purpose getting CR points for it in a ranked division and/or to build my teams in an easy way to have an advantage by picking noobs, then joining the Box and/or Majors.
Everybody should do the same.
Also, I never hid that there should be only the Box to play ranked games.
I'm not a coward needing to disguise my intent.
If GF picking is considered fair then let's allow BBT teams to pick their games (it could even increase the number of games played on the site!).
Either GF is considered fair and then BBT teams should be allowed to pick their games as well or GF is not considered fair and then it should not be allowed for purpose of ranked games and allowing teams to join tournaments.
Fuzzy MM is not logical. Either everybody plays ranked games with blind MM or they play without blind MM unranked games or, if somebody plays with GF and Box, the pure Box coach must be allowed not to face them, with an option.
Hybrid ranking system and MM will always be flawed. |
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badger89
Joined: Jun 03, 2014
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 12:20 |
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| MattDakka wrote: |
GF could still be used for any unranked game, but for any match related to CR, tournaments, Trophies etc. only the Box should be allowed.
. |
I totally agree with this.
Many years ago, I used to pick games, but now all my games are in the box, which I love thanks to the unknown team you're getting. |
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Last edited by badger89 on Sep 08, 2026; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 12:26 |
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| badger89 wrote: |
And many year ago I use to pick game be now all my game are in the BOX which I love you to the unknown team your getting. |
Facing an unknown coach and team improves your gameplay. If you are free to pick easy games you tend to get lazy. You get better, as a coach, when you have to work hard to win or tie a game.
Blind MM is a positive thing, if done properly. |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2026 - 13:03 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | About IRONDWARF Trophy: I don't understand Chingis' objection. I have played some IDT with my Season 2+ teams. |
It's not a strict objection per se, the Irondwarf trophy does technically exist as a reason to play Season 2 as well as Season 1. It's more a question of the salience of it. It's a reason, yes, but a vanishingly insignificant one.
If you are wanting to look at people's motivations for playing in a particular environment, I wouldn't even really bother thinking about motivations that only apply in a miniscule proportion of cases, or to a tiny number of specific people. The environment won't meaningfully exist if there isn't sufficient motivation to play in it (or if there are sufficient dismotivations to play in it) for the vast majority of people. If the environment is enticing to the vast majority of people, and only if, then you have the luxury of even considering the motivations of people in those rare edge cases to also play in that environment (such as people with Season 2 Irondwarf teams). |
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