| Poll |
| Which system seems to be "right"? |
| System A (K.I.S.S.) |
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20% |
[ 5 ] |
| System B (Variation) |
|
29% |
[ 7 ] |
| System C (Complex) |
|
37% |
[ 9 ] |
| Whatever. I came here to have fun, not to hurt my brain. (vote goes to option with most votes already) |
|
12% |
[ 3 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 24 |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
|
 Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 02:42 |
 
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THIS POLL HAS ENDED. NEW SCORING TABLE HAS BEEN SENT AS A GROUP PRIVATE MESSAGE AND IS ALSO POSTED INTO THE END OF PAGE 1. THE NEW SCORING TABLE CAN ALSO BE FOUND FROM THE GROUP PAGE.
original post #1 begins:[/b]
The current scoring system for Swiss and KO tournament just does not work. It's a compromise of multiple score table suggestions created by the previous league founder, Tyrant.
Old points system which will soon be replaced:
Base points: (base points + bonus points = points earned from the game)
Win: 5 points
Tie: 3 points
Loss: 1 point
Not showing up: -5 points
Bonus points: (base points + bonus points = points earned from the game)
TD difference: up to three points for the team which wins the TDs.
CAS difference: up to two points for the team which wins the CAS.
SAMPLE SCENARIOS:
Example 1: Match ends 3-0. 0 CAS is made.
Using current system:
Winner: 8 points. (base 5 +3 for TD difference)
Loser: 1 point. (base 1 +0 for CAS difference)
Example 2: Match ends 1-0. Winner makes 2 CAS. Loser makes 5 CAS.
Using current system:
Winner: 6 points (base 5 +1 for TD difference. no bonus for CAS because CAS difference is negative.)
Loser: 3 points (base 1 +2 for CAS difference.)
Example 3: Match ends 4-2. 0 CAS is made in the match.
Using current system:
Winner: 7 points (base 5 +2 for TD difference. +0 for CAS difference.)
Loser: 1 point (base 1. +0 for CAS difference.)
Example 4: Match ends 1-1. Team A makes 4 CAS. Team B makes 2 CAS.
Using current system which will be replaced:
Team A: 5 points (base 3 +2 CAS difference)
Team B: 3 points (base 3. no bonus points because CAS is negative.)
KEEPING THE OLD SCORE TABLE IS NOT A POSSIBILITY IN THIS POLL. INSTEAD YOU HAVE TO VOTE ON ONE OF THE FOLLOWING SCORING SYSTEMS:
A) K.I.S.S. System (= Keep It Simple, Stupid!)
(Exactly the same as Round Robin score table at the moment.)
Base points: (base points + bonus points = points earned from the game)
Winner: 5 points
Tie: 3 points
Loss: 1 point
Forfeit: -5 points (does not show up) or 0 points
Bonus points: (base points + bonus points = points earned from the game)
None.
SAMPLE SCENARIOS:
Example 1: Match ends 3-0. 0 CAS is made.
Using system A (KISS):
Winner: 5 points. He won the match.
Loser: 1 point. He lost the match.
Example 2: Match ends 1-0. Winner makes 2 CAS. Loser makes 5 CAS.
Using system A (KISS):
Winner: 5 points. He won the match.
Loser: 1 point. He lost the match.
Example 3: Match ends 4-2. 0 CAS is made in the match.
Using system A (K.I.S.S.):
Winner gets 5 points. He won the match.
Loset gets 1 point. He lost the match.
Example 4: Match ends 1-1. Team A makes 4 CAS. Team B makes 2 CAS.
Using system A (K.I.S.S.):
Team A: 3 points. It is a tie.
Team B: 3 points. It is a tie.
Pros and cons:
+ Simple to understand and implement
- Leads to many ties between multiple teams
- Because of ties there will be coin tosses to see which teams go to the playoffs. This is always a really, really negative thing!
- Can not really be modified to allow different kinds of tournaments. (E.g. in Loren Forest Folk Cup teams should get more points from TDs and in Tribal 'Eadsplitta Cup teams should getmore points from CASualties)
- It's not different from the Round Robin point system. Variation is always nice.
- Too(?) simple and IMO even boring. 
B) Small variation of KISS. (=Variation System)
Base points: (base points + bonus points = points earned from the game)
Winner: 5 points (chance to get up to 8 points by winning by a three goal difference and also winning the CAS)
Tie: 3 points (chance to get a 4th by winning CAS)
Loss: 1 point (chance to get a 2nd be winning CAS)
Not showing up: -5 points
Bonus points: (base points + bonus points = points earned from the game)
1 bonus point for the team which wins the casualties. If teams are tied in CAS, neither team gets the bonus point.
Winner will get bonus points as follows:
(Winner's TD difference -1), max. +2points
SAMPLE SCENARIOS:
Example 1: Match ends 3-0. 0 CAS is made.
Using system B (Variation):
Winner: 7 points. (base 5 +2 because (TD difference-1)=2. )
Loser: 1 point. (base 1 +0 because CAS difference is 0.)
Example 2: Match ends 1-0. Winner makes 2 CAS. Loser makes 5 CAS.
Using system B (Variation):
Winner: 5 points. (base 5. no bonus because he won only by one goal and did not win the CAS.)
Loser: 2 points. (base 1 +1 for winning the CAS.)
Example 3: Match ends 4-2. 0 CAS is made in the match.
Using system B (Variation):
Winner gets 6 points. (base 5 +1 point because (TD difference-1=1).)
Loser gets 1 point. (base 1)
Example 4: Match ends 1-1. Team A makes 4 CAS. Team B makes 2 CAS.
Using system B (Variation):
Team A gets 4 points (base 3 +1 for positive CAS)
Team B gets 3 points (base 3. no bonus because CAS is negative.)
Pros and cons:
+ Not as many teams are tied compared to the KISS system
+ Can be easily modified to allow different kinds of tournaments. E.g. easy to make small changes for the Loren Forest Folk Cup (more points from TDs) and Tribal 'Eadsplitta Cup (more points from CASualties)
- The system is not completely balanced or accurate
- Some teams always end up with +1 bonus point. This leads to unequality between teams.
- Has to be implemented manually, just like the current system
C) Complex system[u] (and therefore the most accurate!)
[u]Base points: (base points + bonus points = points earned from the game)
Win: 5 points
Tie: 3 points
Loss: 1 point
Not showing up: -5 points
Bonus points: (base points + bonus points = points earned from the game)
For each TD made by the team: +1 point (max. +3)
For each 2 CAS made by any means: +1 point (max. +2)
Bonus points are earned regardless of the match result.
SAMPLE SCENARIOS:
Example 1: Match ends 3-0. 0 CAS is made.
Using system C (Complex):
Winner: 8 points. (base 5 +3 for TDs made)
Loser: 1 point (base 1 +0 because no TDs or CAS made)
Example 2: Match ends 1-0. Winner makes 2 CAS. Loser makes 5 CAS.
Using System C (Complex):
Winner: 7 points (base 5 +1 for TDs done +1 for CAS done)
Loser: 3 points (base 1 +0 for TDs done +2 for CAS done)
Example 3: Match ends 4-2. 0 CAS is made in the match.
Using System C (Complex):
Winner gets 8 points (base 5 +3 because winner made 3 or more TDs total.)
Loser gets 3 points (base 1 +2 because loser made 2 TDs total.)
Example 4: Match ends 1-1. Team A makes 4 CAS. Team B makes 2 CAS.
Using System C (Complex):
Team A gets 6 points (base 3 +1 for the TD made +2 for CAS made.)
Team B gets 5 points (base 3 +1 for the TD made +1 for CAS made.)
Pros and cons:
+ Not many teams will be exactly tied in points with this system. It is really easy to see which teams move on into the playoffs
+ Accurate, points are given out according to team success
+ Fair system
+ Can be easily modified to allow different kinds of tournaments. E.g. easy to make small changes for the Loren Forest Folk Cup (more points from TDs) and Tribal 'Eadsplitta Cup (more points from CASualties)
- Has to be implemented manually, just like the current system |
_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague
Last edited by Karhumies on %b %11, %2005 - %01:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 09:56 |
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5 votes for system C?????
Guys just don't simply vote for it because it is named "complex".
It's the most biased of the 3.
Hell, if an elven team loose 6-3 vs another alven team, it's real BAD performance. Why should they get 3 points bonus?
Oh and if I don't even need to win the cas contest to get cas bonus points, I set me a quick mental Note:
"Foul turn 16, just foul turn 16" |
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dr_scitt
Joined: Nov 16, 2003
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 12:07 |
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Sk8bcn has a good point on the touchdowns. Perhaps C with a cap on the amount of points for TDS depending on the TD difference between the teams (e.g Up to 3 points but lose one point for each TD difference greater than one). So a score of 3-2 would give 3TD points to the winner and 2TD points to the loser. A score of 4-2 would give the same points with a max 2TD points available to the loser (TD diff = 2 so remove a point from those available).
However in sk8bcn's 6-3 example the winner would get 3TD points but the loser only 1TD point (TD diff = 3 therefore remove 2 points from those available for TDs). Of course such a game would be quite a exceptional elfbowl match in the first place.
As for the cas comment do the match statistics include casualties from fouling/crowd push etc (non-SPP casualties)? Something I've never been fully sure on. I don't really want to see the league become overly fouly as its something we've tried to discourage in setting a "friendly competitive" feel to the league. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 14:26 |
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Site cas counting counts:
blocks
fouls
don't count:
crowd injurys
secret weapons
dodge injurys |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 15:10 |
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As long as the replay works, I can check the amount of CAS done by crowdpushes and weapons if necessary. Therefore it is not a problem.
And a clarification: Dodge and GFI-caused CAS will NOT give points to your opponent.
If people don't feel like including foul CAS done, we can only include other CAS. That would lead to whole lot of Claw and RSC around, though. We have 1 DP max. per team, though...but if you feel like fouling might become a problem, we can ignore foul CAS. |
_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague |
|
Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 15:16 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | 5 votes for system C?????
Guys just don't simply vote for it because it is named "complex".
It's the most biased of the 3.
Hell, if an elven team loose 6-3 vs another alven team, it's real BAD performance. Why should they get 3 points bonus?
Oh and if I don't even need to win the cas contest to get cas bonus points, I set me a quick mental Note:
"Foul turn 16, just foul turn 16" |
If you need to win the CAS to get bonus points and you don't have a super bashy team, you will be fouling mad almost every turn. Not just turn 16. That might become a problem. Also some teams (Orcs!) have so tough armor they would almost always end up with the bonus point. That is quite unfair IMO towards the other teams.
If Elves lose 6-3, they have still scored three times. Much better than losing 6-0. Many races have huge problems making three goals in a game and those teams get more CAS points to make up for it.
Also, if you play flings or Goblins, you will easily make 4+ CAS per game but you can never win the CAS. No matter what. They would be at a disadvantage if using system B or the current system.
This is really a complex issue. |
_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague |
|
Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 15:22 |
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My take on System C was that:
- low av agile teams make lots of goals and get lots of points for that, even when losing.
- bashy teams make little goals and get points for CAS
- it is easier to bash low av teams but they will usually outscore you
- it is harder to outbash high av teams but you can outscore them more easily.
One option is to change the TDs done into TD difference (6-3= bad, 6-5= better) and keep the CAS amount as CAS done and not CAS difference? |
_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague |
|
Drud
Joined: Jan 27, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 17:20 |
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I voted B.
C is just too big of an advantage to speedy agile teams. I basicly believe it's easier to get 3 TD's then it is to get 4 Casualties... I know I'm playing a Chaos team, and of course I'm a bit biased. BTW: How many points would 3 Cas' get you? 1 or 2? About which cas' should count, fouls defenatly should NOT count. Discourage fouling whenever possible! (IMO). So only SPP-cas' should give points IMO... (The ones that give SPP's are: A: Only the ones made with blocks, right? B: The ones that will be in the post-match-report, right? (And will be easier to check for the pointgiver. (Please correct me if I'm wrong))) |
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ZevinzeNompardi
Joined: Oct 25, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 17:23 |
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hello
i did not vote yet, i still have to understand in which way any of this system can be seen as better to the actual one.
maybe i'll end up voting KISS.
bye! |
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ZevinzeNompardi
Joined: Oct 25, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 17:25 |
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hello
i did not vote yet, i still have to understand in which way any of this system can be seen as better to the actual one.
maybe i'll end up voting KISS.
bye! |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 17:32 |
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Current points system favors bashy teams too much. Here are two critical examples from first post:
Example 2: Match ends 1-0. Winner makes 2 CAS. Loser makes 5 CAS.
Using current system:
Winner: 6 points (base 5 +1 for TD difference. no bonus for CAS because CAS difference is negative.)
Loser: 3 points (base 1 +2 for CAS difference.)
Example 4: Match ends 1-1. Team A makes 4 CAS. Team B makes 2 CAS.
Using current system which will be replaced:
Team A: 5 points (base 3 +2 CAS difference)
Team B: 3 points (base 3. no bonus points because CAS is negative.) |
_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague |
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Drud
Joined: Jan 27, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 17:42 |
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I agree the current system does favor the bashy teams, but I also think system C is the opposite, favoring the agile teams. Well, whatever gets implemented can be changed again. C isn't bad or anything, I just like B better  |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 20:31 |
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While ag teams may score well early on using system C, they will suffer loads and loads and loads of CAS even if CAS is not favored by giving a crapload of points for bashing. They will constantly have to hire newplayers, whilst tougher teams can keep their team intact and eventually have a skill advantage over the ag teams.
Besides, we don't have that many agile teams in the group. All the av7 races are trying to avoid us. If favoring agility brings us more elves, we can favor ag for a while and if more elf coaches join, we can then make the system more balanced.
Having a huge variety of races is always a good thing in a long-term league. |
_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague |
|
Drud
Joined: Jan 27, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 10, 2005 - 21:28 |
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True, about needing more av7 races to join. Diversity is good... |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 11, 2005 - 01:27 |
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new points system for ROUND ROBIN and SWISS tournaments:
[NOTE: This points system is used in RR and Swiss regular rounds as well as in the RR and Swiss playoffs]
winner 7 points
tie 4 points
loss 1 point
mid-game concede: loser 0 points, winner 7 points
not showing up: -5 points
tie-breaker:
1) result of head-to-head match (win/tie/loss)
2) RESERVE points (imaginary points used for tie-breakers only)
3) coin toss
RESERVE points are calculated as follows:
We look at all the games in the tournament the team has played so far. In each match separately, we give RESERVE points for the following things:
+1 RESERVE point for each TD made (max. 3 per game) [NOTE: amount of TDs made, NOT the team's TD difference. A 2-1 loss gives you 1 RESERVE point, as you made 1 goal.]
+1 RESERVE point for each 2 casualties made (max. 2 points per game = max. 4 CAS per game) [NOTE: types of casualties accepted are mentioned at the end of this post]
Then, points from all the matches are combined to see the total amount of reserve points for the team. The team with more reserve points advances. If the reserve points are even, a toin coss will settle which team advances.
KNOCKOUT tournament scoring system (also known as "System C" or "Complex System" on the forums):
Base points: (base points + bonus points = points earned from the game)
Win: 5 points
Tie: 3 points
Loss: 1 point
Concede (mid-game or not showing up): -5 points
Bonus points: (base points + bonus points = points earned from the game)
For each TD made by the team: +1 point (max. +3) [NOTE: amount of TDs made, NOT the team's TD difference. A 2-1 loss gives you 1 RESERVE point, as you made 1 goal.]
For each 2 CAS made by the team by any means: +1 point (max. +2) [NOTE: types of casualties accepted are mentioned at the end of this post]
Bonus points are earned regardless of the match result.
In the case of a tie even after an overtime, a coin toss will settle which team advances to the next round. EVEN IF YOU GOT MORE POINTS THAN YOUR OPPONENT WHEN YOU TWO GOT A TIE, TOIN COSS WILL STILL DECIDE THE WINNER.
Reasons for implementing System C into KO tournaments:
[01:38] <Karhumies> who cares if a loss can give more points than a tie? a single loss in a KO tournament and you are out for good :p
[01:38] <Karhumies> a tie leads to a coin toss, no matter if you got more points from the match than your opponent
[01:38] <Karhumies> we need some incentive for players to join Ko tournies
[01:39] <Karhumies> and that incentive is giving out more than just 1 point for dropping out on round 1
Frequently Asked Questions:
Q1:What kinds of CAS are eligible for reserve points and KO tournament bonus points?
A1: CAS caused by blocks, fouls and secret weapons only. (NOTE: only goblin teams are allowed to hire secret weapons in grudge League unless otherwise stated! Any other star players are forbidden.)
Q2: Why just blocks, fouls and secret weapons?
A2: Block and foul CAS are recorded by the client. Secret weapon CAS is really easy to check as there are so few Goblin teams.
Q3: What if a secret weapon player causes a CAS to the teams' own players?
A3: CAS caused to your own team by throwing/fumbling bombs and ball&chain blocks (collapsing does not count) will give reserve points to your opponent. You pay the price for goofing off. If a chainsaw kills itself in GFI or dodge, that is treated like a regular GFI or dodge CAS: no RESERVE points for the opponent.
Q4: WHEN ARE THESE CHANGES EFFECTIVE?
A4: Worlds Edge Mountains Monumental Tournament is the first tournament to use the new RR/Swiss points chart. Kislev Open Championships is the first KO tournament using the new KO tournament point formula.
Q5: WHAT ARE THE NEXT TOURNAMENTS AFTER WORLD'S EDGE AND KISLEV OPEN CHAMPIONSHIPS?
A5: the Loren Forest Fairie Folk Cup and the Tribal 'Eadsplitta Cup (both are KO tournaments)
Q6: What about the Loren Forest Fairie Folk Cup and the Tribal 'Eadsplitta Cup KO tournament points systems?
A6: These two tournaments will use special points sytems which will be confirmed later on. Loren will give more points than usual for TDs made. 'Eadsplitta will give more points than usual for CAS made.
NOTE: You can not enter Loren Cup, neither can you advance to next round in Loren Cup if you have got a "Dirty player" in the team roster!
NOTE: All star players are allowed in the Tribal 'Eadsplitta Cup!
Q7: What if I got something to ask?
A7: Do the following things in this order:
1) Join the chat channel #grudgeleague on server irc.fumbbl.com by using an IRC client, such as mIRC (free download at http://www.mirc.com ) to get a really fast response. We can begin a conversation on the matter and everyone's willing to help.
2) If nobody's in the chat channel, send a FUMBBL site private message to one of the group staff members (list can be found from the group page). They will answer your question within the next 3 days or so.
-Karhumies, Main Organiser |
_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague |
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