| Poll |
| What direction should the E.L.F. take? |
| Go back to the way it used to be. |
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19% |
[ 13 ] |
| Stay the course. Everything is just fine! |
|
19% |
[ 13 ] |
| Badges, you say... are they shiny? |
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28% |
[ 19 ] |
| Will you listen to me for a change!!! |
|
7% |
[ 5 ] |
| The ELF is dead man. Just let it go already. |
|
24% |
[ 16 ] |
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| Total Votes : 66 |
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babelfilm
Joined: Dec 15, 2005
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 Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 00:46 |
 
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My suggestion for ELF points:
<b> Baseline: 10 </b>(So a lost match, is better than no match at all. None of that CR 155 TR 20 diff. stuff. It only makes it harder to find games, and there already is a +/-40 rule.)
<B>
Win: 10
Draw: 5
Loss: 0
TD for: 1
TD against: -1
Cas for: 1</b>
(keep them low, to get a closer race)
<b>5+ TD: 0</b> (5 TD is points enough)
<b>Shutout: 0</b> (I believe that the hunt for shutout victories is part of the cherry picker problem)
<B>Force concession: 0 </b>(Why would that even be considered for points?)
<b>Any games played in FUMBBL Official Tournaments: 0</b> (Dont let it be a prerequisite to join a tournament, to have a chance in ELF)
Come back to the old trophy system with racial challenges and all.
Make an additional badge for completing the cycle (maybe gold, silver, bronze, like Pizzamogul sugests.)
This way we all have something to strive for. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 01:11 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | | MadTias wrote: | | Frankenstein wrote: | | Really? I'd have thought 5 points are meaningless when you can get tons of points by proper picking instead. |
Since you haven't even tried to play in the current system would you please refrain from further trolling?  |
Not if the only difference is the Baseline. I have checked out the group for worthwhile changes after I left. And this thread seems to be about how to get back coaches to E.L.F. anyway.
Perhaps someone might want to consider a less aggressive tone there, sheese. |
His tone was worse but you might consider your own too. I think you are a little behind the times. In the currect system you cannot perform conventional 40TS cherrypicks and win the league simply because someone will almost certainly get ten good scores with the baseline or tournament bonus added. A cherrypick via a tournament is still an easy game after all.
Personally I dislike the baseline. I would rather have some sort of system where we get .5 of a point per TS disadvantage and .3 of a point per CR over 155 (or some balanced equivalent). While we have some sort of cutoff (where its [R]-legal or the "baseline") we will always be presented with an optimal game which is very easy to determine..... i.e. it will be pretty obvious what the easiest way to get points it (either to pick at many TS or to find coaches at exactly 155 CR). Finding coaches who are "just baseline" is still cherrypicking in my eyes. The form of the cherry has changed and it is not nearly as horribly predatory but it still feels wrong because its so precise and upsets my enjoyment o the metagroup. Ideally a system should reward any game you choose, maybe a little slant towards tough matchups would be nice but I'd like to be able to challenge anyone I fancy and not feel like I was cheating myself out of ELF points. I'll re-propose a system in a while but I'm interested to see what people throw up first. I also think ELF needs two main prizes: a) a "winner" prize to someone with the highest score and b) a "most awsome" prize for the person with the highest score after some sort of CR adjustment. That way you cater for the "elite" but still give away something that everyone can aim for, personally I'd respect these wins equally. For the record I think that [B} almost needs its own seperate meta-tournament... completing the cycle is purely a luck thing so awarding any bonus points to integrate it with the main scoring system seems prety arbitrary.
Finally I'd like to say that I dont want ELF to return to its old scoring system. I played a season just before the change and although I kicked arse that season I didnt stand a hope in hell of ever winning while I was playing fair games. While I'm undecided about competing in ELF in the future I'm 100% sure I wont even respect ELF standings if cherrypicking is optimal.... obviously you should decide if thats important or not, perhaps people would enjoy a distinguished cherrypickers club.
Edit: I think there is a serious case for keeping the bonus points for shutouts etc. Personally I enjoy trying to shut my opponent out and preventing all touchdowns is definately tricky enough to be worth those extra few points. I dont play the flashy many TDs style but I would guess it feels similar. Finally it just makes sense to give bonus points for concessions - a good player could farm lots of extra points off of a game like that but is often cut short by the concession (and we dont want to punish coaches for doing too well). If we make sure these are small bonuses I think it should work well. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."
Last edited by SillySod on %b %22, %2009 - %06:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 01:22 |
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| Jakob_olsen wrote: | | I don't agree. The 8th spot in last season, for instance, is held by a ranked team only scoring 169. The 10th spot in the tournament doesn't even have 100 points. |
Disagree all you want. The fact is that most coaches went and tried [B] making E.L.F games in [R] that were a baseline game extremely difficult to find. Hence the few completed cycles was because of [B].
babelfilm, what's the point of giving people points in E.L.F for just playing a game? It seems like the baseline score of 10 that you suggested serves no purpose what so ever. Also there is no incentive for teams not to cherry pick like crazy... did you watch what happened the season before the rules changes?
The +/-40 rule is waaaay to big a gap. Set it at 5TS down and I'm listening.
Whoever wins E.L.F shouldn't be the biggest picker.
I wouldn't mind keeping the bonus points for Official Tournaments. It's not a gigantic factor at all and the risks of entering a tour is deserved of a little incentive. I would rather have a system that encouraged people to play tougher games then the opposite. |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 01:45 |
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Why not ...... enforce the e.l.f. philosophy? Stopping cherrypicking and encouraging playing a diversity of races - to me - seems to be what was the core aim of the group when it was founded. The seasons / point system / badges etc, were icying on the cake adding some fun and bragging rights ... but really, I feel, shouldn't be what the group is about.
That is ... I'd go back to the basic idea and roll things up from there. This may include negative awards, and even, yes, probably booting teams that milk the system. With a dishonourable mention during the end of season award show (which may end up encouraging people to try to grab those - but that's fine ... E.L.F didn't set out to stop cherrypicking, just encourage and celebrate those that chose a more spread out approach). The automatic scoring system might be expanded (and ammended with time) to check for signs of cherrypiking - ts/cr spread of games for example.
Most of the suggestions in this thread feel wrong to me, because they complicate what should be a simple system. I am not paricipating in ELF to win a season or to compete with others (foremost)- proper tourneys do a better job at focusing on competitive elements, anyway. That said - what's important is the "fluff" side of things, as well as feeling that all group members steer toward the same meta-aims of the group, taking them serious enough without losing sight of light-heartedness.
I think it was - and is - a mistake to try to solve the "cherry picking" problem by focusing on adjustments to the points system.
-Mnemon |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 02:18 |
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I think to boldly walk into battle by joining tournaments and leagues, which often are dominated by brutal and powerful bashers, should really be encouraged and account for something. After all, elfs shall prevail over inferior scum to raise the banners of glory and victory.
As mentioned before, that's merely my opinion, possibly shared by no one else. |
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Timppis
Joined: Jun 02, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 08:33 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | I think to boldly walk into battle by joining tournaments and leagues, which often are dominated by brutal and powerful bashers, should really be encouraged and account for something. After all, elfs shall prevail over inferior scum to raise the banners of glory and victory.
|
Dominated by bashers you say? Wow and I thought most of the tournament wins went to elves 
There is a finnish ice hockey coach who's main principle in the game is "Keep it simple stupid" and maybe that's what it should be.
I want to play E.L.F. again, and I still don't like the baseline system, and even though Foulscumm may lack tact in his opinions he still has made good points.
What irks me in the bonus points is that they don't treat elves in fair fashion. They (in my opinion, could be horribly wrong) do tend to favour wood elves who pick -20ts games against no-skill khemri who have absolutely no way of scoring or preventing them from scoring those 5td's. Of course in my opinion the Khemri had it coming, and I hope few mummies died in the game as well
So maybe instead of bitching and whining and not playing with the current system I just should throw in a proposition of my own.
<b>The new, improved, totally awesome, non-questionable, ultimate E.L.F. scoring board.</b>
Points Awarded
Baseline:
Game played= +5 pts (In order to receive these 10 points you must play a "baseline" match in which the Team Strength Differential is even (zero) or in your opponents favour)
Result:
Win= +10 pts
Draw= +5 pts
Scoring:
Per td scored= +1 pts
Per td allowed= -1 pts
Casualties:
Per cas caused= +1 pts
No negative modifier for casualties against - you've already suffered enough!
<b>Completions!</b>
Complete a category= +2 pts
Complete the cycle= +10pts
Bonuses:
Score 5 or more touchdowns= +1 pts
Shutout victory (opponent does not score)= +1 pts
Force opponent concession= +2 pts
Any games played in FUMBBL Official Tournaments= +5 pts (You must write 'ELF in tourney' in the match report to receive these points!)
Double points awarded for all Category A games - multiply your total score x2.
That's it.
I'd get rid of the CR modifier in the baseline game. Hey, if we play against tougher teams who have weak coaches not only do we at least play against tougher teams, but maybe those coaches get something out of it too, instead of always playing against other bashers with their slow and cumbersome greenskins or zombs. Also reduce the amount of points from a baseline match just a bit because now it doesn't seem right that you get as much points from -1ts game than you'd get from +1ts win. Win is always a win. Besides, the TS still means a heck of a lot more than the CR, because even low CR even teams can get fairly lucky, when as -35ts teams really really don't.
I also made just a little decrease on the bonuses, just because it seems that many people have said a thing or two about them.
And lastly I added the magnificent idea I just got into my head right now, the completions.
Example of an E.L.F. coach thoughts few hours before season is over
"I have a good score, but darned, I just can't find that one more baseline match that could give me enough points to get up there in the board. BUT HEY, I need just one match to complete the cycle anyway! I can play any match and still get the +10 pts from completing the cycle and that means that I can play that dwarf team that is -2ts and will probably kick my high elves ass big time but I'll still get the completion points, AND the category completion. WOW that means that if I get a draw I'll win the whole thing. Say hello to my little Elves you hairy little stunties..."
And thus there you have it. The ultimate scoring board for E.L.F. that will miraculously catapult it into the fame and glory and success of unpreceded magnificence.
Thank you 
OH, and I still want those badges, if there's going to be [B]lack ribbon then I finally have an excuse to make myself elf team in the blackbox |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 10:19 |
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ELF in Ranked:
- get rid of the ELF in tourney bonus OR do not let it be accumulative with the baseline bonus: at the moment it rewards playing lots of tourneys and waiting for a lucky +15 points game (ELF in tourney and baseline).... this is too much bonus as it makes the difference and clearly favours coaches able to play lots and lots of tourneys....
ELF in Box:
- Remove the baseline bonus (its not necessary in the box)
ELF season:
- personally i will not play every ELF season as i like to play more with my other teams as well. consider if less seasons a year would be an advantadge (as everybody would play at the same time in elf if others think like me - or if mutlitple seasons are good so everybody can chose his season
- also bablefilm s detailed ideas about the scoring system are good imo |
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MadTias
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 11:15 |
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| babelfilm wrote: | My suggestion for ELF points:
<b> Baseline: 10 </b>(So a lost match, is better than no match at all. None of that CR 155 TR 20 diff. stuff. It only makes it harder to find games, and there already is a +/-40 rule.)
<B>
Win: 10
Draw: 5
Loss: 0
TD for: 1
TD against: -1
Cas for: 1</b>
(keep them low, to get a closer race)
<b>5+ TD: 0</b> (5 TD is points enough)
<b>Shutout: 0</b> (I believe that the hunt for shutout victories is part of the cherry picker problem)
<B>Force concession: 0 </b>(Why would that even be considered for points?)
<b>Any games played in FUMBBL Official Tournaments: 0</b> (Dont let it be a prerequisite to join a tournament, to have a chance in ELF)
Come back to the old trophy system with racial challenges and all.
Make an additional badge for completing the cycle (maybe gold, silver, bronze, like Pizzamogul sugests.)
This way we all have something to strive for. |
I'll just say this one more time: this kind of scoring system (the "old" rules) actively encourages picking. Why oh why would you want a scoring system that encourages picking? |
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MadTias
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 11:31 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | His tone was worse but you might consider your own too. I think you are a little behind the times. |
I apologize for the aggressive tone.
For anyone who cares, here's my explanation for it:
I care about ELF and have been taking an active part in four of the last five seasons. I think it's one of the funniest parts of my FUMBBL experience atm. This joy is all because of the "new" scoring system. I played one season in the "old" system, realized it was a joke and was then a strong proponent for changing into the "new" system. As a competitive player, the scoring system has to actually mean something to make the group interesting to me. Thus, to go back to the "old" system would kill my intererest and that would make me sad. I'm personally committed to ELF.
So when I see coaches that have not been taking active part make sweeping statements about the nature of the group, it gets to me. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 12:07 |
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How about the following:
Baseline:
+5 pts. for playing a CR155+ coach
+5 pts. for playing opponents with even or higher TS without recieving handicaps
Result:
+10 for a win
+5 for a draw
Touchdowns:
+/- 2 pts per touchdown
Casualties:
1 point for each cause cas
Tourneys:
Official Ranked tourneys always count as full baseline (the +10 pts) regardless of the actual opposition.
OR
Official Ranked tourneys give a 15% bonus rounded down. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 13:02 |
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| Timppis wrote: | | Dominated by bashers you say? Wow and I thought most of the tournament wins went to elves |
No, I said "often dominated". That makes a hell of a difference.
Actually, FUMBBL tournaments are rarely won by elfs. Why this doesn't apply to majors is an entirely different can of worms, preferably not opened here.
Edit: Grammar |
Last edited by Frankenstein on %b %22, %2009 - %20:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Jakob_olsen
Joined: Nov 20, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 15:18 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: |
Disagree all you want. The fact is that most coaches went and tried making E.L.F games in [R] that were a baseline game extremely difficult to find. Hence the few completed cycles was because of [B].
|
Repeating your statement does not make it more correct, i'm afraid.
I'll go one season back then, to season XVIII. This season was before Blackbox was launched.
Season XVIII only saw 8 coaches complete the cycle, with 3 of the top-ten teams not having a completed cycle - The highest ranked at the 5th spot.
Pizzamogul -> Right now this discussion seems to be going in a bit of a circle. It does not seem that we can agree on a set of rules that would satisfy everyone. May i be so bold as to make the suggestion that it is time for you to make a few changes that you would like, and then start a new season. It is, after all, your league and you should decide which direction you want it to take. |
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Tathar
Joined: Sep 29, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 16:02 |
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I think SillySod makes some good points.
| SillySod wrote: | | Personally I dislike the baseline. I would rather have some sort of system where we get .5 of a point per TS disadvantage and .3 of a point per CR over 155 (or some balanced equivalent). |
This kinda of scoring system aligns match up optimization with hardcore E.L.F. aims i.e. games vs strongest teams/coaches are rewarded with the most points.
| SillySod wrote: | | A cherrypick via a tournament is still an easy game after all. |
I agree and think that, if there is a baseline, games should qualify on their indiividual match-up merit or not. If there was a significant tournament bonus then you could just keep playing smacks and hope that you get some weaker teams/coaches.
| SillySod wrote: | | I also think ELF needs two main prizes: a) a "winner" prize to someone with the highest score and b) a "most awsome" prize for the person with the highest score after some sort of CR adjustment. That way you cater for the "elite" but still give away something that everyone can aim for, personally I'd respect these wins equally. |
This is a good idea. Maybe a most improved award?
| SillySod wrote: | | For the record I think that [B} almost needs its own seperate meta-tournament... completing the cycle is purely a luck thing so awarding any bonus points to integrate it with the main scoring system seems prety arbitrary. |
One way of keeping [B] in the fold is by allowing higher category games to fill in slots for lower category games.
Also personally, I don't have as much spare time now as I used to and if other coaches are struggling to complete the cycle then perhaps a longer time period would help. |
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babelfilm
Joined: Dec 15, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 16:56 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | [babelfilm, what's the point of giving people points in E.L.F for just playing a game? It seems like the baseline score of 10 that you suggested serves no purpose what so ever. Also there is no incentive for teams not to cherry pick like crazy... did you watch what happened the season before the rules changes?
The +/-40 rule is waaaay to big a gap. Set it at 5TS down and I'm listening.
|
If you lose 0-1 without baseline, your score is -1. With a baseline of 10 points it would be 9.
So a lost game is better than not playing. |
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babelfilm
Joined: Dec 15, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 22, 2009 - 18:04 |
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I am trying to understand exactly how you can cherry pick.
Can somebody explain what is considered cherry picking? |
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