treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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 Posted:
Jan 07, 2010 - 09:05 |
 
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Hi All,
I was wondering if others have had the same happening in official fumbbl tourneys or if clear guidelines exists for forfeited tourney-games:
My team made it into the finals of the current B-minor
I was quite pleased with my success as it's really my first official tourney-final, but my enthusiasm soon dissolved when I had to watch my oppo just pass through the semi-final by cointoss or a ruling.
This happened even though i told the staff, that my team was in no hurry and would be happy for the other team to finish their semi-final at a later date than the official deadline, but the ruling was as it is despite of that.
Now, I don't know whether or not there's a reason why it wasn't possible to arrange another date to actually play the semi-final and wasn't really given a reason (don't know if next b-minor will have to wait till this one is finished, but I really don't know why that should be?)
Fact is, my team is now facing a finalist which doesn't have any mng and will be able to afford 2 stars (which they most probably wouldn't have been able to afford while spending the gold for 1 star on the semi-finals)
I don't want to complain too much, but have to admit, that this is a quite unexpected and thus frustrating start of my first tourney-final 
Something like this must surely have occurred before.
I'd just be interested if this is the way it gets handled in general (tough luck) or if there have been different rulings, as well? |
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BiggieB
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
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Jan 07, 2010 - 09:21 |
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Its the way it gets handled in general. So tough luck for you  |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Jan 07, 2010 - 09:27 |
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| BiggieB wrote: | | Its the way it gets handled in general. So tough luck for you |
So matches never get postponed even though finalist agrees - deadline, 24:00h - that's it?
Is there a reason - does kickoff of next b-minor have to wait (when is it starting, anyways?)? |
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BiggieB
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
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Jan 07, 2010 - 09:35 |
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I am not really involved in running tournies but the reason is simple: Consistency. The workload of running a tourney is pretty heavy. To make it easy and fair for all the rules are set in advance and are followed to the letter. The deadline for each round is set in advance. Its clear to everyone when the game needs to get played. If the game is not played on time the responsibility rest on the players and the tourneystaff will follow the tourneyrules as they should and have done in this case. Keeping it fair for all sides is very hard and the best way to do it is to lay the rules in advance and follow them. This I know, believe me  .
/B |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Jan 07, 2010 - 09:37 |
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deadlines are deadlines, not slightly-injured lines. |
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Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
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Jan 07, 2010 - 09:40 |
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The next opponent has no say in the staff granting an extention for a game he isn't involved in. Extentions are given only when there is a good chance the game actually gets played. This means the coaches need to have set a time to play and both contacted the staff. If not the game will be forfeited at the deadline to make sure the tourneys run as scheduled. |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Jan 07, 2010 - 09:50 |
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| Rijssiej wrote: | | The next opponent has no say in the staff granting an extention for a game he isn't involved in. Extentions are given only when there is a good chance the game actually gets played. This means the coaches need to have set a time to play and both contacted the staff. If not the game will be forfeited at the deadline to make sure the tourneys run as scheduled. |
Well from my conversation with the other finalist i understand that his daughter was not well last night and the other semi-finalist had an early shift to work on, today.
He told me that prior to the ruling so i assume the staff knew at least that much, as well.
Just seems a little arbitrary if there's just the final to be played and not much to administrate except that, really.
Also that's rather encouraging to try for a cointoss if you're the underdog in a tourney, really - I know that's not the case for the semi-finalists, though. |
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Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
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Jan 07, 2010 - 10:14 |
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| treborius wrote: | | He told me that prior to the ruling so i assume the staff knew at least that much, as well. |
Don't assume. Besides that, the details of this ruling are none of your business. It is about a game you are not involved in.
| treborius wrote: | | Also that's rather encouraging to try for a cointoss if you're the underdog in a tourney, really - I know that's not the case for the semi-finalists, though. |
For me I join tourneys to actually play games. I think that is true for most coaches. Besides that...if you go for a cointoss a lot the staff will notice and forfeit in your opponents favor and/or ban you from official tourneys. |
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fly
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 07, 2010 - 13:11 |
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i've lost scheduled smacks or RRRs for the same reason. not gaining spp nor money while having mng's from round1, when my opponent had 2 games to earn spp in. |
_________________
I play for fun. I play to win.
Do you play CPOMB 'cause you can't win otherwise?
No, that's a rhetorical question. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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Of course it also often works the other way around, where the team that gains the forfeit/coin toss victory feels aggrieved that they had no chance to earn cash/spp and regain missing players. Or that they bought stars and toys for the game that now isnt played, not for the one they now find themselves facing.
The situation you find yourself in may not feel 'fair' to you treborius, but it is. By entering the Tournament you have agreed to play whatever opponent the tournament and admins throw at you until you have won it or been eliminated. Facing an opponent with more/less games played in this specific tournament is always a possibility, one the tournament admin team work hard to avoid, but a chance none the less.
The specifics of what happened to your 2 possible opponents when they played/did not play THEIR game, is none of your concern.
There HAS to be a system, there HAVE to be rules. Or else virtually no tournament would ever complete.
Given that. What would you suggest we do that would be fairer on the whole, easy to enforce and explain, consistent and practical? I am always open to new ideas, but it needs to be a little more thought through than simply 'Whaaa, my game is tougher than i thought it should be'.
Sadly, at its core, that is what this thread amounts to.
EDIT: Oh, and grats on making the final. |
_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Jan 07, 2010 - 19:41 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | | What would you suggest we do that would be fairer on the whole, easy to enforce and explain, consistent and practical? |
My suggestion would be: If my information (given by one of the 2 coaches involved) are true, just give them a few more days to finish the match - no more, no less
| PurpleChest wrote: | I am always open to new ideas, but it needs to be a little more thought through than simply 'Whaaa, my game is tougher than i thought it should be'.
Sadly, at its core, that is what this thread amounts to. |
Since you asked me for suggestions, let me ask you in turn: How can I ask the questions #1 'is this the way it usually gets handled' and #2 'would it harm anyone to postpone the game, i.e. would it make the next b-minor wait' in a more proper way as you seem to be suggesting, that I phrased it in a lamenting tone?
Please also note, that I yet don't know the answer to #2
If, of course, you think that asking those questions (#1 and #2) are completely outrageous as they might question site-rules, then we absolutely belong to different worlds 
And just to be clear: Yes, I understand what coaches have answered to my original question #1 - I gotta suck it up and live with it - please be assured: I will
EDITED for clarity. |
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Ilzhahkha
Joined: Oct 04, 2008
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Jan 08, 2010 - 12:18 |
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Consistency is great, but in longer tournaments (majors) it might be possible to have different rules for say the top-8 matches (where there should be less workload as well) compared to the first rounds of the tournament. Even if it's the players responsibility to get the matches played, it's probably in everyones (including spectators) interest that all matches actually get played. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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My reply was in view of the fact that you have been answered and yet do not seem to be accepting the answers.
So to be clear:
Question 1: Is this the way it is usually handled?
Answer: Yes. As stated in the rules for official Tournaments and through 'case law' practice for at least the last 18 months.
Question 2: would it harm anyone to postpone the game, i.e. would it make the next b-minor wait?
Answer: Yes. But not in the single way you state. So, in no particular order.... The 'harm' would be in several areas. First there is the prospective next opponent and the 2 coaches directly involved in the game, and any other coaches they will face in thwe future. All have signed up to a Tournament, declaring they have the free time to meet their commitments. They have done so knowing the start and end date of the Tournament. It is not fair to alter this without their knowledge and acceptance. People have other commitments outside of FUMBBL. Holidays etc. In this single instant the prospective next opponent (you) seems happy for the next round to be delayed, but this is not always the case. Then there is the wuestion of where do you draw the line? if not at 1 week, then when? Baring in mind that many people (later rounds) can be affected. Do you have another fixed point? If so how is this any fairer? In this specific instance the previous round had 2 weeks, so there was 'space' in the tournaments schedule already. Do we need 3? or 4? How long exactly are Tourneys going to run if each round is flexible up to x weeks a time? On top of that is the credibility of official tournaments themselves. Ask anyone that has run a tournament/league and they will tell you that 'impetus' and 'inertia' are key factors. if there isnt a sense of immediacy about coaches playing their games then the whole format loses peoples attention and interest and by granting 'friendly' seeming extensions to one game or coach, suddenly you have set a precedent everyone else expects to be available to them. There is also th question of time spent administering official tournaments. There is alreadya heavy workload that myself and my team meet for free. Do you expect us to judge and set deadlines for each individual game? If not at what point do tournaments become special? The semi final? why not the round before? why not only the final? Also never underestimate the ability of the average fumbbler to not understand simple rules. already we have a LOT of people that enter the wrong team, or from the wrong division. would less clear and less certain rules help these players?
I could go on. And on. And on.
Now, actually we DO offer a deal more flexibility towards the end of tournaments. For semi finals and especially finals. But we never grant 'open ended' extensions as they are so very meaningless and rarely lead to the game being played. Instead all we ask for is a time to extend such a game to. a promise from both coaches that such an extension WILL achieve the playing of the game.
And no, it wouldn't delay the next B minor (actually B major).
But beyond even that, as i said before, everyone involved has already agreed to abide by the published rules, including you, and this procedure is laid out there. Ultimately if you dislike the conditions you have already agreed to you have the option of not playing your game and recieving a ban, or of not applying in the future.
if you want to play in a tournament that is largely deadline free, and relies on the goodwill of all involved to ensure the schedule is met, i suggest you make one yourself, if you keep the numberws reasonably small there is a chance it will work. But official tournaments will never be run that way.
You also never responded to the concept of the game being played, and the opponent you now face having MORE cash and a couple of new skills as well as no missings. The basic problem is you are comparing the team you now actually face with the one your imagination had decided would come out from the game that wasnt played(where it didnt do very well). It doesnt seem to occur to you that the team might have been strionger for playing the semi final, not weaker.
To reply to your 'innocent little me is just wondering not complaining', read again the first two answers you got. Thread done by post 4, all solved and answered. Yet here we still are............ |
_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
Last edited by PurpleChest on %b %08, %2010 - %13:%Jan; edited 2 times in total |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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Jan 08, 2010 - 13:10 |
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It sucks, but stiff upper lip old boy....go into the match as the underdog and kick some arse! What what!
(and a word of advice, don't get into a 'discussion' with Purp. He's like hannibal Lector, he will make you swallow your tounge with words alone...) |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 09, 2010 - 13:56 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | My reply was in view of the fact that you have been answered and yet do not seem to be accepting
[...]
Question 2: [...] Answer: Yes. But not in the single way you state.
[...]
Now, actually we DO offer a deal more flexibility towards the end of tournaments. For semi finals and especially finals.
[...] |
what you said pretty much answered all questions I had and I probably should have read the tourney-rules again, but then again your answer gives me just the kind of info I was looking for, i.e. are those rules always strictly enforced even towards semi-finals and finals...
...thx for the effort of explaining and sorry if you felt annoyed by yet another lamenting thread, but that wasn't my intention and would've stopped posting as soon as I felt, that answers were really given
| Calcium wrote: | It sucks, but stiff upper lip old boy....go into the match as the underdog and kick some arse! What what!
(and a word of advice, don't get into a 'discussion' with Purp. He's like hannibal Lector, he will make you swallow your tounge with words alone...) |
hehe, thx for the advice
EDIT: Quotes |
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Posted:
Jan 07, 2010 - 14:09