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Synn



Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Location: Here but far gone in a metaphysical way....

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 13:14 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:

4. Bank rule, yes I think we all know this is better than what we have now. 10/10


This would be precisely why playing here is important for crafting a ruleset (talking to Plasmoid.... but it also applies to Harvestmouse). TT doesn't often produce teams with 100+ games. It takes an online league to really see teams so long lived. The fundamentals of BB and team management in an open online league are distinct from a closed TT league or a GT type tourney.

The bank rule as you proposed fundamentally hurts lighter teams at the expense of the 'bashers' (despite the bashers being the ones who get to stockpile cash).

This is because bashers tend to avoid the Journeymen-cycle. This is where you find yourself with 9 permanent players. The only way to break the cycle without managing who you play is to bank up enough cash while you use the fodder to jump from 9 to 12 players. If you are an elf, that is 210k. The bank rule will undo the great work you guys did in crafting the JM rule (the best addition to BB since the nerf to DT in my opinion).

And what is this bank rule trying to avoid? Teams with high amounts of unused cash? How does that cash help them?

There is a rare circumstance where a team with a high TV advantage can then buy all inducements and put the difference so large that the opponent will not have enough inducements available to cover the difference, but we have yet to see that here.

Instead, the primary impact of having a large pocket of cash is you can ensure the continuation of your team. I can lose both Ulfwerners in one game and be able to replace them without taking a hit to my TV. I can lose an Ogre and simply plug in a new one.

Here is a question the designers of any ruleset needs to be asking themselves.....

Do more people play this game online or TT?

Design rules in favor of the greatest audience. That way you can get even more pissed off when Cyanide botches them Twisted Evil

__Synn
**Getting shouted down is all the fun these days Mike Laughing
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 13:28 Reply with quote Back to top

As a random thing on the bank rule, I'd love to see it applied to FUMBBL major/minor tournaments only (I know, I know). The only real time that it's an issue is when you have a heavy bash team with 1M cash + entering a major, and inducing wizards against lower TV opposition(such as Khemri). I *think* (not sure), RandomOracle used some petty cash on his FC winning run, and I've got a sneaking suspicion I've seen it as well in Box majors.

The time it's most useful is that if you have a 1940 TV bash team with 1M in the bank, and let's say you have 60k inducements (playing a 2k TV team), it allows you to induce a wizard every round where that is true, only giving up a babe in return. Agile teams can't afford to do that, because they never have the spare cash.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 13:32 Reply with quote Back to top

We can all agree, Journey Men are a great addition. Also I did say the rules for me, and how I would like to see them.

Your opinion of Journey Men and how they are used, isn't the same as what was intended. Journey Men are there to replace players when funds and players aren't available. Not to stock pile cash until you can tailor the team to perfection.

Fluffwise a coach, would want to be as competitive as possible for each match (unless resting players for a big match up coming up). Therefore he would do what he could to be so (competitive). Remember in a fantasy environment of BB, there wouldn't actually be TV. I know this is at odds, with those who think of the game purely mechanical, however without thinking about fluff and how BB would work in it's universe, the game loses substance and point.

With the bank, it encourages coaches to buy now, instead of saving. I am generally positive to this. For me it's one of the small steps needed of many, to discourage coaches from playing with small rosters.
Synn



Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Location: Here but far gone in a metaphysical way....

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 13:42 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:

Your opinion of Journey Men and how they are used, isn't the same as what was intended. Journey Men are there to replace players when funds and players aren't available. Not to stock pile cash until you can tailor the team to perfection.


Two points, both blunt:

1.) The rule (like BB in general) was never designed for an open and perpetual league like we have here. The difference between managing a TT league team to a 16 game season is different than aiming for a 100 game keeper.

2.) You are a terrible judge of this ruleset. You can not stockpile cash to get an in game advantage. All the cash in the world means nothing in game once the match starts and you have a bunch of Journeymen who can't use RRs. 'Perfect' teams come about through the right skill advances on the right players. You don't get there without players on your roster.

__Synn
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 13:43 Reply with quote Back to top

The main bit I still dont get is why make up a rule for Secret Weapon to cover up the mistake the BBRC made in the first place. Just bring back Secret Weapon rolls. It was perfect. No need to continue with a bad decision for the sake of it. I have never met a single person who thought getting rid Secret Weapon roll was a good idea.

Also the Sneaky git rule in terms of fouling is actually making the skill worse than it is now, because it doesn't make them any less likely to be sent off and it doesnt give any bonus to fouling. So whats the point?


I also agree with HM, no need for the Claw change. PO yeah fair enough, see how it goes, although I still believe that allowing a Re-roll of injury goes against a fundemental rule of the game, not enough imo and you still haven't addressed the issue that it is safer to be on the ground than it is standing.
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 13:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
The main bit I still dont get is why make up a rule for Secret Weapon to cover up the mistake the BBRC made in the first place. Just bring back Secret Weapon rolls. It was perfect. No need to continue with a bad decision for the sake of it. I have never met a single person who thought getting rid Secret Weapon roll was a good idea.


Now you have Wink
JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 13:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Synn is bang on here - this was my whole point with JM "abuse".
It isn't abuse because you don't gain an in-game benefit from it!

_________________
Garion wrote:
Jimmy is always right Razz

Purplegoo wrote:
Jimmy is, indeed, always right.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 13:59 Reply with quote Back to top

(Re Synn)

I totally agree with you, regarding the rules for an environment like this, and a slow running/progressing TT environment. Half the problems we have, appear to be caused by the lack of thought for how it works for places like here.

As for your other point, Hito just described a way of abusing stock piled cash. Also, it is unnatural, and (in my opinion) unnecessary (I really don't see the point in saving for players to buy all at once, and see no long term tactical advantage). How would Man Utd or The Chicago Bulls fans react to a coach who said 'Look I know we're on a bad run at the moment, with Dave from the corner shop playing, and I have 200 million I could spend on players now, but won't. However don't worry, in 6 months time we'll be ok again. I'll buy all my players at once!!!' In short he'd be looking for a new job, shortish.

I'll concede though, a larger bank maybe optimum.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 14:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Hitonagashi wrote:
Garion wrote:
The main bit I still dont get is why make up a rule for Secret Weapon to cover up the mistake the BBRC made in the first place. Just bring back Secret Weapon rolls. It was perfect. No need to continue with a bad decision for the sake of it. I have never met a single person who thought getting rid Secret Weapon roll was a good idea.


Now you have Wink


Seriously? You are a mad man! It worked perfectly well. There was no need to change it.


Last edited by Garion on Mar 02, 2012 - 14:12; edited 1 time in total
Synn



Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Location: Here but far gone in a metaphysical way....

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 14:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Noobagashi wrote:
Very Happy

As a random thing on the bank rule, I'd love to see it applied to FUMBBL major/minor tournaments only (I know, I know). The only real time that it's an issue is when you have a heavy bash team with 1M cash + entering a major, and inducing wizards against lower TV opposition(such as Khemri).


And in the current ruleset, if you hire when you have the TV advantage, your opponent gets that same amount of money in inducements. Whether it is a bash or elf team, the impact is still even.


Noobagashi wrote:
Very Happy
The time it's most useful is that if you have a 1940 TV bash team with 1M in the bank, and let's say you have 60k inducements (playing a 2k TV team), it allows you to induce a wizard every round where that is true, only giving up a babe in return. Agile teams can't afford to do that, because they never have the spare cash.


If you are short money and want to induce a wizard, it is a full 150k to buy. You lose all the "free" inducement money. Your higher TV opponent can always decide to use their own money as well (see your example above). Its a rule mechanic. Someone is helped and someone is hurt. That's is not a reason to end the ability to hold cash without screwing your TV. Especially since the side effects of the bank have not been studied in a large open online environment (despite the fact it seems to try to address a phenomenon that only occurs in large open online environments).

__Synn
JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 14:15 Reply with quote Back to top

HM - a loner playing for the team is nothing like dave from the corner shop playing for Man U.
Maybe it is like the Patriots paying league minimum for an older guy who may not work so well as part of the team to save salary cap - just like real life!
Also using your stockpiled cash does not mean abusing it!

Hito - Elves are just as capable of JM "abuse" to stockpile cash, I guess even more so seeing as more survivable teams naturally amass larger treasuries.

Sorry Garion I agree with Hito regarding secret Weapons.

_________________
Garion wrote:
Jimmy is always right Razz

Purplegoo wrote:
Jimmy is, indeed, always right.
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 14:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion:

To expand slightly, in my opinion, all the secret weapons are already massive balls of random. I dislike any mechanic that moves towards the "4+ I win, else I lose" mechanic, and especially with a dwarf team and a deathroller, I'm glad that I don't have to face the 1 in 4 games against them where they don't get it sent off for the entire game. When you play as or against a secret weapon now, you know exactly what you are playing against. With the send-off rules, you could plan to mitigate an effective weapon by scoring fast. Even though it is a big nerf to the weapons, I'd prefer the weapons be made more effective than even more random.

Synn wrote:
Noobagashi wrote:
Very Happy

As a random thing on the bank rule, I'd love to see it applied to FUMBBL major/minor tournaments only (I know, I know). The only real time that it's an issue is when you have a heavy bash team with 1M cash + entering a major, and inducing wizards against lower TV opposition(such as Khemri).


And in the current ruleset, if you hire when you have the TV advantage, your opponent gets that same amount of money in inducements. Whether it is a bash or elf team, the impact is still even.


Noobagashi wrote:
Very Happy
The time it's most useful is that if you have a 1940 TV bash team with 1M in the bank, and let's say you have 60k inducements (playing a 2k TV team), it allows you to induce a wizard every round where that is true, only giving up a babe in return. Agile teams can't afford to do that, because they never have the spare cash.


If you are short money and want to induce a wizard, it is a full 150k to buy. You lose all the "free" inducement money. Your higher TV opponent can always decide to use their own money as well (see your example above). Its a rule mechanic. Someone is helped and someone is hurt. That's is not a reason to end the ability to hold cash without screwing your TV. Especially since the side effects of the bank have not been studied in a large open online environment (despite the fact it seems to try to address a phenomenon that only occurs in large open online environments).

__Synn


Yep Very Happy.

It adds to tactical options to allow it, and I'm all for tactical options. The only issue is, without a bank, there's no downside. I'd prefer it to be a risk...do I want to win this game so badly that I blow my savings for a tactical advantage...not a "meh, got the cash, mays as well use it" sort of thing.
PsyPhiGrad



Joined: Dec 22, 2007
Location: Winnipeg

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 14:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
you still haven't addressed the issue that it is safer to be on the ground than it is standing.


Until this is addressed PO should be removed from the game. Unless you are willing to make it illegal and carry the same risk of ejection as fouling does.
Tarabaralla



Joined: Jul 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 14:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Hypernoobynn wrote:
Noobagashi wrote:
Very Happy

As a random thing on the bank rule, I'd love to see it applied to FUMBBL major/minor tournaments only (I know, I know). The only real time that it's an issue is when you have a heavy bash team with 1M cash + entering a major, and inducing wizards against lower TV opposition(such as Khemri).


And in the current ruleset, if you hire when you have the TV advantage, your opponent gets that same amount of money in inducements. Whether it is a bash or elf team, the impact is still even.


Noobagashi wrote:
Very Happy
The time it's most useful is that if you have a 1940 TV bash team with 1M in the bank, and let's say you have 60k inducements (playing a 2k TV team), it allows you to induce a wizard every round where that is true, only giving up a babe in return. Agile teams can't afford to do that, because they never have the spare cash.


If you are short money and want to induce a wizard, it is a full 150k to buy. You lose all the "free" inducement money. Your higher TV opponent can always decide to use their own money as well (see your example above). Its a rule mechanic. Someone is helped and someone is hurt. That's is not a reason to end the ability to hold cash without screwing your TV. Especially since the side effects of the bank have not been studied in a large open online environment (despite the fact it seems to try to address a phenomenon that only occurs in large open online environments).

__Synn


The point is not gaining something the opponent doesnt have. The point is that for basher teams the only fearful inducement is the wizard, while the starts are easily killed by clawmbpo (oh yes Morg, you can trash your av10!) and the rest is just to make the opponent team live a bit longer. And then, if they see you'll have a wiz, they can buy it too. You'll gain additional 150k inducements, but wizard is one only, and the rest wont matter so much.
BooAhl



Joined: Sep 02, 2004

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 14:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Synn wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:

Your opinion of Journey Men and how they are used, isn't the same as what was intended. Journey Men are there to replace players when funds and players aren't available. Not to stock pile cash until you can tailor the team to perfection.


Two points, both blunt:

1.) The rule (like BB in general) was never designed for an open and perpetual league like we have here. The difference between managing a TT league team to a 16 game season is different than aiming for a 100 game keeper.

2.) You are a terrible judge of this ruleset. You can not stockpile cash to get an in game advantage. All the cash in the world means nothing in game once the match starts and you have a bunch of Journeymen who can't use RRs. 'Perfect' teams come about through the right skill advances on the right players. You don't get there without players on your roster.

__Synn


Actually stockpiling is good for two reasons.

1) You can buy whatever inducment that will give you an edge in the next game.

Example: Wizz vs dwarfs is better than wizz vs Elfs. If you playing an Elf team vs a dwarf team an induced wizz will get you an advantage.

2) In Tournament, if you can buy a new lino instead of the MNG/Riped one from the previous game. You will have one player less with Loner. But this point might only be applicable to Fumbbl.
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