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Synn



Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Location: Here but far gone in a metaphysical way....

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 14:53 Reply with quote Back to top

NubFacealla wrote:
Very Happy
The point is not gaining something the opponent doesnt have. The point is that for basher teams the only fearful inducement is the wizard, while the starts are easily killed by clawmbpo (oh yes Morg, you can trash your av10!) and the rest is just to make the opponent team live a bit longer. And then, if they see you'll have a wiz, they can buy it too. You'll gain additional 150k inducements, but wizard is one only, and the rest wont matter so much.


Then fix the problem of bashers only fearing a wizard.

Getting rid of excess cash won't hurt bashers as much as teams that suffer CAS. If a team is capable of pulling in a Million dollar bank by game 50, then clearly dumping cash isn't going to hurt them. The team that struggles to get to 11 players that does find itself with a sudden 200k in the bank is the one that is going to get screwed by this rule.

__Synn
Synn



Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Location: Here but far gone in a metaphysical way....

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 14:57 Reply with quote Back to top

NoobAhl wrote:
-yes this is getting fun Very Happy

Actually stockpiling is good for two reasons.

1) You can buy whatever inducment that will give you an edge in the next game.

Example: Wizz vs dwarfs is better than wizz vs Elfs. If you playing an Elf team vs a dwarf team an induced wizz will get you an advantage.


Already addressed in the ruleset by giving the other coach inducement money. You guys also realize that wizzies were changed to hurt elves at the expense of lower AG teams right?

NoobAhl wrote:
Very Happy

2) In Tournament, if you can buy a new lino instead of the MNG/Riped one from the previous game. You will have one player less with Loner. But this point might only be applicable to Fumbbl.


That is the primary reason someone should be able to stockpile cash. To buy players. The tourney part shouldn't matter.

__Synn
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 14:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Hitonagashi wrote:
To expand slightly, in my opinion, all the secret weapons are already massive balls of random. I dislike any mechanic that moves towards the "4+ I win, else I lose" mechanic, and especially with a dwarf team and a deathroller, I'm glad that I don't have to face the 1 in 4 games against them where they don't get it sent off for the entire game. When you play as or against a secret weapon now, you know exactly what you are playing against. With the send-off rules, you could plan to mitigate an effective weapon by scoring fast. Even though it is a big nerf to the weapons, I'd prefer the weapons be made more effective than even more random.


I get what you mean, but I can't agree, the nerf is just far too huge. All the secret weapons except the Golin starter players have Loner, so no re-rolls which really hurts, and the Goblin starter secret weapons are terrible, no dodge for the chainsaw, Ma3 for the ball and Chain, the bombadier is ok. It is also pretty easy to deal with all of them as well really.

With Secret Weapons rolls they still had a higher chance of getting sent off than staying on anyway (except bazooka and Stakes) but Stakes have been nerfed a huge amount. Against the others the Secret Weapon roll was still enough reason to make people consider scoring quick. There just wasn't a guarentee that they would be sent off, which is a good thing imo, Personally I would prefer to see dwarves taking the deathroller a bit more, you just don't see it ever these days because of this rule.

Also for inducements - Elves get their Wizard but bash do not get any good inducements and this would help swing that bias a tiny bit, though the elves would still get the greatest advantage from inducements.

Finally comes the problem with teams that have secret weapons that Kick first, and if they leave their weapons on the bench and suffer just one or two cas and conceed in turn 8 then they have to put their weapons on for just one turn to see them get ejected. It means Goblin games are often decided by the coin toss at the start of the game, which is just wrong. There is nothing in these new rules to fix that problem either, the only rule that gave you a chance here was the Secret Weapon rolls.

and again -

PsyPhiGrad wrote:

garion wrote:

you still haven't addressed the issue that it is safer to be on the ground than it is standing.


Until this is addressed PO should be removed from the game. Unless you are willing to make it illegal and carry the same risk of ejection as fouling does.
Tarabaralla



Joined: Jul 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 15:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
and again -

PsyPhiGrad wrote:

garion wrote:

you still haven't addressed the issue that it is safer to be on the ground than it is standing.


Until this is addressed PO should be removed from the game. Unless you are willing to make it illegal and carry the same risk of ejection as fouling does.


Seems legit. Booting a player isnt legal but jumping with both boots on his face after a block is just routine Shocked
Synn



Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Location: Here but far gone in a metaphysical way....

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 15:30 Reply with quote Back to top

It's called giving him the full Siragusa. That is how you pile on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9_Rr-YNdYY

__Synn
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 15:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Nubynn wrote:

That is the primary reason someone should be able to stockpile cash. To buy players. The tourney part shouldn't matter.


How about raising it to 250k then? Razz. At the point you have enough for 3 linos, even if you have 8 journeymen, it's *far* better tactically to have 3 less journeymen than to try and save up the cash to get all 8 at once.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Location: Dallas, TEXAS

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 15:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Bank rules: No need for them. This idea that stockpilling cash will unbalance the game is false. Check out the top team lists. Hit the gold button. Now you will see a lot of teams in Box and Ranked with a lot of cash. Then look at their TV and their race. You find that the gold horders are basically the min/max teams. Also they are of races with high AV or cheap fodder. Then hit TV/MAX, check out the teams and then look at cash. Unless it is a converted LRB4 team the VAST majority of the teams who are over TV2100 have little to no cash.

Spiralling expenses work great at limiting teams and putting a serious crunch on the cash.

Now this idea that a team with 1mil in the bank can win a tournament by buying up inducements. Ok lets go down that path. Lets say you go 6 games into a tournament and buy a wizard every single game. You just consumer 900,000 gold. It took you 62 games to get to a million gold. Are you willing to do that? IF yes, then more power to you. But the reality is the vast majority of coaches do not do this. They might buy a wizard for one or two matches based on the match up but that is it.

SE + the cost of the stars put a end to the idea that teams could Buy Stars and ride them to victory. In the long run it takes to much time to collect a huge treasury, SE hurt once you hit the -30,000 + range. And if you wnat to play the min/max cheese and buy inducement plan. Most of the time you will be fielding a sub par team and completly rely on the inducement edge you bought to win the match. Also most coaches are not going to buy 2 big stars/wizard and babe. That is to much money for the other guy. Also lets say you are min/max 1600 TV playing a 2150 TV team. You really want to expand the skill advantage that higher TV team has by giving them free inducment money?

The above example is a good one because the underdog is getting 550,000 gold. Why would he ever spend more money than the 550,000 gold? Then couple that with the fact the underdog is min/max cheese sitting on 1.9 mil in gold. He never spends gold because he never has to. Never worries about SE kicking in. Thus gold for that team is a completly pointless game concept.

This idea that hording gold renders SE pointless is false. Teams who min/max never suffer SE coupled with the type of team they play they horde gold naturally. Teams likes elves or coaches who like to play at higher TV are crippled by SE and it becomes a huge problem for those teams. Team building becomes more complex because you allways have to juggle the effects of SE on your team.

There is no reason to introduce Bank rules because it only hurts the teams it is supposidly trying to protect, the teams that have high cost players and high player turn over rate.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 16:12 Reply with quote Back to top

How about this?

No bank limit
No bank-bought inducements in tournaments

And maybe:
No spiraling expenses

Perpetual online play is the only place where stockpiling cash and then spaffing it for a tournament run makes any sense, and if you remove the ability for someone to buy inducements with their bank roll, then the harm it potentially does is removed.

This would mean that excess cash is just that, it becomes simply excess, spare, un-needed.



Spiraling expenses never made much sense to me. What's it for?
I'm sure there's players who hover below 1700 in normal play to build cash stack and then buff their team up to 2k+ for a tournament, and deflate again to rebuild afterwards.

This seems an artificial restriction that doesn't sound fun to me. In an online perpetual play environment, why not let teams find their own level that they grow to naturally, that their coach is happy for them to compete at?
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 16:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Spiraling Expenses is there to stop league leaders staying at the top of their league forever. The idea is to stop teams from constantly developing until they reach a level where they are untouchable.

SE works because it makes it tough for teams at the top to replace players when they get injured and as a result they sometimes struggle in a couple of games until their TV is reduced and they can afford to get replacement players.

It may be a bit low for my taste, but it is still a good thing. I think SE is the sole reason that majors are more interesting in this rule set.Without it teams wouldreach such a high Tv that there wouldn't be enough inducements in existence to make up the gap. It keeps even the highest TV teams around 2500 and means a win is always possible for the underdog. Its a good thing I think.

But I'm sure some one could think of a completely new system that would work better if they put some time into it.
Tarabaralla



Joined: Jul 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 16:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Spiraling Expenses is there to stop league leaders staying at the top of their league forever. The idea is to stop teams from constantly developing until they reach a level where they are untouchable.

SE works because it makes it tough for teams at the top to replace players when they get injured and as a result they sometimes struggle in a couple of games until their TV is reduced and they can afford to get replacement players.

It may be a bit low for my taste, but it is still a good thing. I think SE is the sole reason that majors are more interesting in this rule set.Without it teams wouldreach such a high Tv that there wouldn't be enough inducements in existence to make up the gap. It keeps even the highest TV teams around 2500 and means a win is always possible for the underdog. Its a good thing I think.

But I'm sure some one could think of a completely new system that would work better if they put some time into it.


+1
SE fluff is just retarded, but they're quite effective even if striking harder on agility teams.
Synn



Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Location: Here but far gone in a metaphysical way....

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 16:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think any team in an open environment would be capable of reaching a level at which inducements couldn't catch them.

In order to even get to that point, they would be playing a lot of games where there would be heavy inducements against them.

This might show the difference between designing rules for a TT environment and designing rules for an open online environment. Wink

__Synn
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 16:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm good response Garion, thanks


Going back to the bank being used to buy inducements, an example:
2000TV elves vs 2000TV nurgle. elves pay to buy a wizard or babes. nurgle get a wizard or babes as well now, but the wizard is more influential for the elves

inducements are probably generally better for the balling teams than the bashy ones, bashers less likely to need to recover from KOs, also they're more likely to have a better blitzer than the star players...


As an extreme example:
It means elves could play hundreds of games at very low with cheapest possible players (journeymens ideally, if that wasnt naughty) so they can build a huge cash stack of several million.

THEN they start actually building their team up, so when they enter the tournament they're at high TV plus also have the cash to buy wizards or babes or whatever inducements they like.



To some extent this happens already. I think that a tournament should be decided by a combination of who is the better coach, with the better team, and better dice - rather than also by who has spent the most amount of time beforehand playing meaningless games building their bank roll up.


Last edited by Sp00keh on Mar 02, 2012 - 16:28; edited 1 time in total
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 16:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Synn wrote:
I don't think any team in an open environment would be capable of reaching a level at which inducements couldn't catch them.

In order to even get to that point, they would be playing a lot of games where there would be heavy inducements against them.

This might show the difference between designing rules for a TT environment and designing rules for an open online environment. Wink

__Synn


http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=277067
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Location: Dallas, TEXAS

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 16:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
Spiraling expenses never made much sense to me. What's it for?


1)In theory it is a better system than the LRB4 Winnings chart which was SE done diffrently.

2)Since they eliminated FF as the key componet of winnings, they needed a new system to cap teams.

3)With inducments it became very important to level the playing field for the high TV teams so they could not purchase inducments as the favorite. You could get around LRB4 SE by having a large FF and then only play against high FF teams.

4)The idea that you could horde gold and buy stars/wizards in LRB4 was addressed and changed in the new rules by making SE a flat tax on high TV and jamming the cost of the stars to epic levels.

There is also the punitave angle to this.

1)The idea that high TV is bad

2)That you can "buy" wins if you horde cash

3)The absurd idea that the rules were desinged for TT leagues. But TT leagues dont have 100+ teams in a single league that have TV higher than 2200TV and massive cash on hand. It dont happen. Thus the theory the rules were intended to be as harsh as possible to force you to play at 2000 TV or less. IT plays well with the TT crowd who dont seem to like high TV Blood Bowl. So it was smash hit.

4)Now we come full circle. SE and the inability to maintain high TV with cash has spawned all these "cheese" tactics to get around all of this. But the problem with the work arounds is that it forces you to allways play in the 1400-1900 TV range. Thus dumbing down the game and making it unfun for a lot of coaches.

So the biggest issue for a lot of coacehs under LRB4 was this idea that you prep for a tourney, get a large horde of cash. Then buy stars/wizards and get a huge advantage on winning. But in the regular ho hum day to day playing this never really happened.

Now under CRP rules they changed the rules so that you cant enter a tournament with the idea of buying all the inducements to get a big edge but the problem is they gimped the High TV teams to the point that now the majority of coaches have bought into the idea that getting a team over 2000 TV is bad team managment. Thus the majority of teams all look the same and play the same because they are pigeoned holed into a very specific TV range. Thus TV min/max is the proper tactic to employ in that enviroment.

As you can see, IMO SE are a huge game mechanic that effects a lot of issues with the "game".

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Synn



Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Location: Here but far gone in a metaphysical way....

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 16:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Hitonagashi wrote:

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=277067


So your argument about a team getting a TV high enough to outpace inducements is to use a LRB team that hasn't played a single CRP game? Then you picked the LRB team with 2 off-book prizes? Finally a team that took part in numerous Fumbbl Bdays back when there were no injuries or aging?

__Synn
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