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Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 22:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Homonculi and Golem is cool.
BooAhl



Joined: Sep 02, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 23:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Negatrait is needed on Big Guy.

Also ag2 on toads?
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 23:04 Reply with quote Back to top

4 stabbers is WAY WAY OP, esp vs low av stunty teams.

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Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 23:10 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:
4 stabbers is WAY WAY OP, esp vs low av stunty teams.


I'm not convinced of that Pythrr...I've been playing Fgobs and the stabbity stab isn't all that great even vs. av7. Now, obviously its effectiveness goes way up vs. lower than av7, but those players are not as common (at least, I haven't played all that many personally).

Additionally, the Wizards other 'spell' (HG and Bomb) options combined with their own weakness (no block or dodge to start, AV7, and HUGE targets) means they'll get removed from the pitch pretty quickly by the opposing killers.

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Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 23:12 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:
4 stabbers is WAY WAY OP, esp vs low av stunty teams.
Stab isn't as good as Poison Dagger once was, but I tend to agree that it can be Very powerful (especially without Secret Weapon!)
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 23:14 Reply with quote Back to top

yup, 4 non SW stabbers will screw a team. remember that many stunty league teams have av6 - they are not all 7. stab goes thru av 6 like, um, a knife thru butter.

hello av6 los... stab stab stab. at least 2 injured, on average rolls.

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On1



Joined: Jul 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Give the Mutant Toads - Thrall

Give Wizards Bloodlust

Cause these wizards love to experiment with all sort of mad spellcasting and their favorite guinea pigs just so happens to be Mutant Toads (heck, this might even be why they are mutants)

I think this would balance this 4x stab somewhat.

Give the Mutant Toads right stuff also? Razz
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 00:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Doesn't pretty much every AV6 (or less) team have multiple high AV players as well?

Fairies, Treemen.
Slaves, Mecha.
Snots, Trolls.
Pygmies, Krox and Alligator warriors.

Seems like the only team off the top of my head with a problem would be Strigs, CFlings, and Fgob teams (assuming they dont' want to risk their AV7 positionals). And that's kind of a rock/paper/scissor thing.

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Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 00:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I think before we get carried away with the stab it should be remembered that those wizards are fragile. No blodge access, ST2/AV7 AND the fact they cost 120K should keep them honest.

Lets not forget that stab doesn't break even low armour 100% and then there's a costly, weak old man left with a free block against him.

The toads are also probably about the worst players in the game which tempers the brilliance of the positionals.


@Sigmar1: Thanks mate, I think it's probably because it's one of the more oddball ideas out there at the moment so understandable I guess.

And yeh that was the idea, toads are meant to be really awful Smile

Memphits are a bit overpriced purely because of their general access which gives them blodge for 100k. I don't know if this might even be too little for them, especially if regen's added in which I think I might as it makes some sense background wise and will hopefully make this team a bit better at bouncing back from a particularly brutal game. What do you think?

The familiars are a pretty cool idea and something I hadn't thought of. I think maybe because the 'inspiration' for the team was the zap! spell. But if the mimi-slann get a go ahead I think it would be wise to, for the same reason I put in an elemental as opposed to a frogzilla.

Good point on the big guy too. What it comes down to is whether the big guy provides the role of 'tarpit for opponent nasties' or a more mobile support/tarpitter I think. Certainly something to think about I reckon.

The reroll cost is more a problem that they won't be able to grow much past the original roster in terms of acquiring positionals/rerolls. Looking at it a new team could buy all positionals and have 11 players with 70k or 80k rerolls so from that stand point I suppose it doesn't matter too much - I'm easy either way really.

@BooAhl: Hi BooAhl, is the negtrait more for convention or because you think it's overpowered without? With loner, his high price tag and there being only one of him I left the neg trait off purposefully but I could be wrong in doing so.

AG2 frogs would certainly make them almost completely useless as ball carriers, which is good, but the power level of the team would drop quite alot I suspect with the change from 2+ to 3+ dodges (titchy) which might not be so good.

@pythrr: Hey man, just going over the maths quickly the odds of KO/CASing an AV6 stunty with a stab is about 34%, so with 3 on the LOS chances are 1s going out. I don't see this as game breaking myself and I think you might be over egging it a bit particularly taking into account what I've written at the beginning of this (long) post. Bearing in mind too that the 'linemen' on this team are very injury prone themselves and that barring the big guy there is no easy ST access to facilitate MB or PO so IF you wanted to hurt stuff you'd be flinging these ST2/AV7/non-dodging biddies into the mixer which seems like a good way to lose.

@On1: Hehe, I like it, very wizard-ey. Though with hypno and bloodlust they'd seem a bit like a bad strigoyan spin off to me Smile

Given everything I've mentioned about stab and the guys doing the stabbing I think it might look better on the face of it that it actually is so the price of the wizards and their cost is handicap enough. What do you think?
Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 00:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Wall of text, ergh.
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 07:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, had a moment to mull over some of the comments/ suggestions/ responses and although this team is totally Aflo's I'd like to offer the following modified list as I think this is a pretty neat idea that could make for a very different and interesting team. The main goal was to address the balance issues while staying within the original team concept.

Team: Wizard's Guild

0-1 Golem 3/6/1/10 Bonehead, Loner, Mighty Blow, Standfirm, Thickskull, TTM S/AGP 130K
0-4 Wizards 5/2/3/7 Bombadier, Stab, Hypnotic Gaze, Leap AP/GS 100K
0-2 Memphits 6/2/3/7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Sprint A/GSP 50K
0-16 Homunculi 5/1/3/6 Dodge, Stunty, Titchy, Thickskull, Regeneration A/GSP 30K

Apo: Yes
RRs: 70K

The biggest change is the General access. The original roster had 6 (!), this roster has none. Why? Well, this way the team has no true blitzer positional and the team has to rely on the gimmicky 'spells' (which of course will be seriously lacking until the bombs are added) to play effectively.

To offset that weakness, player values have been reduced, and the Homunculi, while easy to damage, are artificial constructs and feel no pain and are easy to repair and/or replace, thereby shoring up the 'expendables'. The golem, while also a construct, is much more difficult to damage AND repair (hence no regen).

If this lineup seems too weak still, perhaps the Memphits could get G access to fill the role of ballcarrier and blitzer with a revised cost of 70K. Alternatively, maybe the Wizards (who are human after all) could bump to ST3 for 120K, thereby improving their survivability and providing the team with hitters in addition to the spells. This way each wizard would be a truly versatile player, although I don't like this idea as much tbh.

Flame on!

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Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 19:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Bumped to a more active time period, as I wrote the above at a time nobody is around to appreciate my genious.

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Aflo



Joined: Jun 16, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2012 - 23:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Hey Sigmar1,

I've warmed alot to the familiar/humonculi aesthetic since there's nothing stopping a few toad based icons getting in on the fun, negating any initial problem I had with it.

A couple things that came to mind immediately about the proposed roster:

- Not a fan of the wizards having normal agility access, just doesn't feel right. So I think either give them just passing skills or passing/general like before. Personally I really think the latter sits best and emphasises the toolbox, jack of all trades feel.

- Taking general access from the memphits sort of defeat the original point of me putting them in the roster which was as more dedicated blitzers/sweepers/ball carriers much like skaven stormvermin. Without they're just a bit similar to bog standard goblins which strikes me as a bit dull.

- No problem at all with the Golem; I think I like both that and the elemental idea equally. The other would make a great star player regardless so I guess it hinges on what role he plays in the team.


The obvious difference between the two is trading general access skills for a reduction in cost. If it really is the overwhelming opinion that 6 fragile general access players in a team full of very squishy blood-bags is just too powerful, then I'd personally much rather see the problem addressed with a price increase as opposed to the opposite.

Keep the comments/criticisms coming, I think the general idea is quite a unique one within stunty and as far as I can tell would be some fun to play.

Cheers,


Adam
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 06:25 Reply with quote Back to top

My thinking on the Wizards... clearly they need something other than just Passing skills available to them. But G would put them into the elite of Stunty bashers. I just don't see Wizards as having that kind of game. You frequently see highly dextrous and agile wizards though, so A seems a better fit, and makes them more dependent on their spells than their skills for affecting the opposition.

Overall the team lacks strength, not sure if the Wizards abilities make up for it. Perhaps the Memphits could be St3 but not stunty? Or St2 with G.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 29, 2012 - 06:29 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the team is probably ok on the strength side; compare to Forest goblins, and they actually come out rather similar, except the wizards have both stab and bombardier, instead of being limited to just stab, although the homonculi are weaker than gobbos. I don't think you need to give wizards G access, nor change the Mephits. (Btw, I do believe it should be Mephit, as those are small elemental creatures, whereas Memphit reminds me of a city.)
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