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Pentalarc



Joined: Mar 17, 2012

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 02:08 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm about to have to create my fourth (I think) Slann team the first collected way too many injuries and niggles before being taken out, the next two were wiped out in a one or two game stretch, and were too expensive to fix, and now the same problem trying to rebuild this one.

The thing is, they seem like they can't rebuild as well as some of the other expensive teams. Even wood elves can survive while being reconstructed, but it seems like once the frogs take some losses, they're useless.

Any advice for keeping a slann team alive long enough to advance?
Smeat



Joined: Nov 19, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 04:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Don't play teams w/ Mighty Blow? AV 8 can do that (and the AV 7 St 2 Catchers?... fuggedabowdit). Seriously, at least until you have some skills. I don't mean that you should cherry pick, but just realize and accept your vulnerabilities and be slightly selective in the punishment you are signing up for, at least to start, at least until you (your team and you as a coach) have some skillz you can rely on. But that's only the most recent game, where you flushed a new team after Game 1.

( btw - No need to retire a team if all you've lost are unskilled linemen - you'll get free replacement linos. And they go on the LoS to take the punishment instead of your permanent players - and if they take a -stat, no big. A pain if they get MVP, but 3(+) journeymen is not unusual for a low AV team that's (re)building.)


More to the heart of the problem, re-watching a couple games, your strategy and tactics seem off. If you have a team that's 0-9, you need to change how you play these guys at a basic level. Taking ANY risks before moving all your players leaves half your team out of the play when you fail - saw that repeatedly. And you will fail - easy to roll a "1".

Needless 1-d Blocks to start off the Turn? Aggressively marking a bashy team? Trusting that 1 man will screen the ballcarrier? Just more recipes for lose (I know!). (Re-)read this and this, and only then read this (considering that last from both a defensive and offensive point of view*.

(* Knowing how to break makes knowing what is needed to build easier).

And Leap - there is no auto-RR skill for Leap. As with any 1/6 fail chance, use it last, expect to fail, make sure your field position won't be fatally flawed when you do. If you use Leap early every turn, 1/6 chance to fail over 16 Turns, odds are you'll fail 3 times during the game - on the first Leap. Great way to end a Turn before it's done. Use Leap as a game changer, the surprise, the threat, the bonus headache for your opponent once you've got the field position you want anyway. If it's critical, do it early so you have a RR, and if it's NOT critical, do it last. And don't be surprised when you fail.


Find a good team that seems to have done quite well for itself - watch their old games, see what they do/don't, and learn, "spectate to dominate".


Also, as a post script, I'll add this - easier said than done. If all it took was knowing what one should do, my win % would be higher. In a game, in the chaos, it's not always easy to see except as hindsight.

GL!

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 05:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Build around the realities of it. 2 Catchers, 9 Linemen, Apo, 4 RR, 50k bank. Don't take any Blitzers until you've got Blodge on both Catchers and quite a number of Wrestle linos. then buy your Blitzers and skill them up one at a time until they all have one skill, before just letting nature take its course.

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Lorebass



Joined: Jun 25, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 05:49
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i think taking the low str squishy guys with no immediate defensive skills would be bad for his `staying alive` plan. having a krox and 2 blitzers keeps you alive a while longer with the pressure from the big guy and the lack of av7. you want to win more? go catchers sure, but you want a full compliment? get some nice blitzers first.
Pentalarc



Joined: Mar 17, 2012

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 07:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Smeat wrote:
Don't play teams w/ Mighty Blow? AV 8 can do that (and the AV 7 St 2 Catchers?... fuggedabowdit). Seriously, at least until you have some skills. I don't mean that you should cherry pick, but just realize and accept your vulnerabilities and be slightly selective in the punishment you are signing up for, at least to start, at least until you (your team and you as a coach) have some skillz you can rely on. But that's only the most recent game, where you flushed a new team after Game 1.

( btw - No need to retire a team if all you've lost are unskilled linemen - you'll get free replacement linos. And they go on the LoS to take the punishment instead of your permanent players - and if they take a -stat, no big. A pain if they get MVP, but 3(+) journeymen is not unusual for a low AV team that's (re)building.)


More to the heart of the problem, re-watching a couple games, your strategy and tactics seem off. If you have a team that's 0-9, you need to change how you play these guys at a basic level. Taking ANY risks before moving all your players leaves half your team out of the play when you fail - saw that repeatedly. And you will fail - easy to roll a "1".

Needless 1-d Blocks to start off the Turn? Aggressively marking a bashy team? Trusting that 1 man will screen the ballcarrier? Just more recipes for lose (I know!). (Re-)read this and this, and only then read this (considering that last from both a defensive and offensive point of view*.

(* Knowing how to break makes knowing what is needed to build easier).

And Leap - there is no auto-RR skill for Leap. As with any 1/6 fail chance, use it last, expect to fail, make sure your field position won't be fatally flawed when you do. If you use Leap early every turn, 1/6 chance to fail over 16 Turns, odds are you'll fail 3 times during the game - on the first Leap. Great way to end a Turn before it's done. Use Leap as a game changer, the surprise, the threat, the bonus headache for your opponent once you've got the field position you want anyway. If it's critical, do it early so you have a RR, and if it's NOT critical, do it last. And don't be surprised when you fail.


Find a good team that seems to have done quite well for itself - watch their old games, see what they do/don't, and learn, "spectate to dominate".


Also, as a post script, I'll add this - easier said than done. If all it took was knowing what one should do, my win % would be higher. In a game, in the chaos, it's not always easy to see except as hindsight.

GL!


I have gotten bette since the Comets, which were my first Slann team. This most recent one was Uncanny Frog Origami.

I admit that I'm not the best player. . . I hadn't played in years before I found this place, and it was many rulebooks ago when I was playing table top, and I've had to adjust my strategies since I was much more of a passer in my tabletop days than under the new rules.

I am taking all your (and y'all's) advice to heart, and looking into it. I think part of my problem was trying to play Slann like elves. . .I just can't think of how to play them not with elf-like strategies.

I'm going with a Krox right out of the box this time, to try something different, and give me an anchor.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 10:09 Reply with quote Back to top

A few points.

1. Just checked it's your 5th team.
2. The something something origami team even though they were using Journey Men, didn't deserve retirement. Once you have skills, continue.
3. With Slann, I wouldn't muck around with fancy skills like nerves of steel, get block/wrestle and dodge on all players.
4. Your main problem is you simply don't get enough SPP points, you need to address this to get the team to work.
5. And this is connected to 4. When I check coaches I know to be known pickers recent matches, I see your name a lot.

Looking at your recent 20, there's nothing obvious there actually, but historically the little sharks see you as one of their favourite toffees. If you feel a coach is playing you often for an easy win or beat down (and you want to change your success rate) feel comfortable in refusing.

Don't get me wrong, still play the top coaches like you do (these aren't the pickers) and they'll improve your game, but having a CR of you have, you can take a lot more liberties with the match ups.

In all honesty there's little reason for you to accept unfair match ups, or match ups that will destroy your new Slann team. Play are harder game of poker, and get some matches that offer you a better chance of winning/gaining spp to get them off the ground and surviving.

This maybe harsh, but it's the reality.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 10:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Slann are pretty squishy. You've a boatload of AG3 that can't get away on a two, and because of that, you suffer a whole load of excess blocks that something like Woodies wouldn't. One of the ways to keep CAS down is to utilise Slann's natural advantages; if a coach is forever mindful of what you can do (i.e. Leap in and do the business), he's likely to over worry about that, tortoise shell up, and hence leave less contact and reduce the number of blocks in the game. This helps you, you aren't trying to outblock him. So get some Wrestle and Strip on Linos early, give the opposition something to think about. In actuality, getting in, springing the ball and getting away with it is far less likely than we all think, but every coach remembers the times it's buggered them, not the other times it's a dead Wardancer / Frog and the drive harmlessly continues. The threat is often bigger than the reality!

A Kroxigor is important in terms of position, grunt and trying to minimise blocks on your own guys. Catchers are also great, they can get away, and they give you a shot at winning early, which is important in terms of rerolling winnings, etc. They will also Dodge up nice and swiftly, helping them look after themselves.

Ignore Blitzers until you have more cash than you know what to do with, and consider ignoring them even then. Overpriced, way too much TV getting you into stickier games, and too tricky to dedicate time skilling. 4 Catchers, a Krox and the deepest bench you can afford (Slann never worry too much about TV on the bench, it's likely they'll all get a game!) will get you halfway there, a bit of luck will get you the rest of the way. Hope you find some. Smile
Rat_Salat



Joined: Apr 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 21:44 Reply with quote Back to top

The Krox is key, try to set up 3d blocks with him early. a 3d block has almost the same turnover chance as a 2d block with block skill... 2.8% for block and only 3.7% for the krox with 2 assists. That's good odds, so try and get blocks with him when you can.

Goo is a better coach than I, but I wouldn't shy away from taking one blitzer to start. You can still get the Krox, 2 catchers, and 3 rerolls which is a nice well-rounded start. As with any team that starts without any block, getting a designated blitzer should be your top priority. Having one guy with block, (and later mighty blow) really increases your chances of getting either a player advantage, or keeping things even. Since blitzers start with Jump Up, they are well-suited to the Mighty Blow/Piling on role. Try to blitz with this player every turn, unless you are making a play on the ball. This is good advice for any team, but especially non-bashy teams with access to a str player (like skaven or human).

As mouse said, skip the fancy skills. Wrestle is your skill of choice, followed by strip ball. Catchers should get blodge and sidestep. Doubles should almost always be guard. A leaping guard is a great weapon. Guard players should probably get block if they don't already wrestle.

Third, and most important thing... when playing ranked, learn to pick. If you have wrestle and strip ball, look for teams without sure hands. If you managed to get blodge on 2-3 catchers, avoid teams with tackle. Anyone with block/mighty blow/piling on? Don't play them. Since you appear to be an easy win for coaches, you can afford to wait for a good matchup. Since you are struggling as it is, save playing harder matches until you are winning the easy ones. Don't play Dwarves, Amazons, or Norse at all. Stunty teams are actually not that easy to beat without block players, especially goblins, since without block their whole team effectively blodges. What you want is a few games against rookie Chaos or Nurgle, or perhaps Chaos Pact or AV7 elves. Wood Elves, Pro Elves or Skaven may beat you, but you can beat on their AV7 and pick up casualty skill points while lessening the chance that your team gets mangled.

Finally, consider playing another race. Slaan are not considered an especially strong starting team, and although they are fantastic in the hands of a legendary coach, this doesn't describe you yet. Dark or High Elves are mobile AV8 teams that are forgiving and durable.
the_Sage



Joined: Jan 13, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 22:24 Reply with quote Back to top

I prefer to start with 1 catcher. He picks up the ball, walks with it if possible, jumps or passes as necessary, but ideally hands off to a blitzer. The aim is to get 0 TDs on your catcher. Once your (2) blitzers both have 2+ skills (blok + either dodge or mighty blow), hire a third. Once he has 2 skills, hire a 4th. Once he has 2 skills, start thinking about more catchers.

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Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 22:38 Reply with quote Back to top

With that many slaan on the board, couldn't you just 6 dice The Dwellers Below and hope you take out half the opposing team? I mean, yeah you might lose a slaan on the miscast but you'll have 10 more at least.

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neoliminal



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 22:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Leap should be used for emergencies or if you get a player with AG4. It's not a sure thing and often a dodge works better for what you want to accomplish.

When you get some nasty combos going, adding strip ball and jumping into cages to hit ball carriers is fun!

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DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 20, 2013 - 22:43 Reply with quote Back to top

I largely agree with Purplegoo and Rat_Salat - catchers are absolutely key for slann. Just protect them early on (unless something is genuinely on), until they get Blodge. Once they have blodge they are great players. I also like the krox - gives slann some much needed punch, and he's a lot better than most Big Guys.

Blitzers are expensive for their price, but with DT and Jump-up they make very good 'Safeties' for marking ballhandlers ('Blitzer' is a terrible description for this player, unless skilled up appropriately). I'd only get a couple of those, but they do play a role. Get wrestle and strip ball on a lineman, and try to pop the ball loose with him instead.

Best starting line-up for me - 3 catchers, 1 krox, 1 blitzer, 6 linemen and 3 rerolls. Get an apo next when you have some cash (hopefully after 1 game). But whatever you pick, I wouldn't start with less than 3 rerolls and 3 catchers. And yes don't play bashy, tackle teams to begin with (e.g. dwarfs!) as slann catchers are extra-squishy in their first few games. However lots of developed catchers are essential for a good slann team build, and you need to start skilling them right from the first game (so I totally disagree with the Sage. Wink )
the_Sage



Joined: Jan 13, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2013 - 00:22 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
lots of developed catchers are essential for a good slann team build, and you need to start skilling them right from the first game (so I totally disagree with the Sage. Wink )


Oh I agree that if you want to build slann fast, blitzerless is the way to do it. However, I think a developed slann blitzer is on of the best players you can have. Having 2 guys with block pomb tackle and 2 with blodge sidestep makes for a very tough team that doesn't need the Krox that much. However you'll never get the blitzers skilled up if you have >1 catcher, since they'll steal all the TDs.

But then I just happen to like to focus on building my teams, scoring more TDs with sauri than skinks, and with BoBs than blitzers.

A +AG lino with wrackle strip ball is also a very nice thing to have around.

Looking at your other teams, it doesn't seem like you're looking to make them win, you're just asking about survival. Well slann are a really sucky team for survival, because they need to mark but have no dodge or AG to either get away or survive. They may have AV8 but feel like AV6 most of the time.
Pentalarc



Joined: Mar 17, 2012

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2013 - 00:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks everybody. I play all the teams, and I know that slann are not a good beginning team, but I try to have one of each. This time I'm trading the blitzers for a Krox, and going

3 Catchers
1 Krox
7 linemen
4 rerolls

First time I'm using an opening setup without blitzers and with the Krox, so we'll see how it goes. I've never been a fan of wrestle, seeing as it leaves my player down and vulnerable to fouling, and block gave a better shot at spp. I'll see how it goes, however.

Thanks a bunch, y'all
Rat_Salat



Joined: Apr 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 21, 2013 - 04:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Pentalarc,

The idea with wrestle is that it will take down a ballcarrier with block. Adding strip ball means you have a 97% chance to knock the ball free vs a player without sure hands on a 2d block. Even on a 1d block it's 87%. -2d with reroll is something like 90% chance of knocking the ball loose. Wardancers make their living this way, and every player on the pitch has the same potential when playing slaan. Not understanding this gives some good insight as to why you may be struggling, as this is pretty much the best reason to play slaan in the first place.

Wrestle/Tackle also has good odds. Having a number of players with this combination, and not exposing said players to blocks increases the chances that you will successfully be able to stop your opponent on defense.

Understanding probabilities and managing risk is one of the most important concepts in blood bowl. You can easily predict the outcome of your actions with reasonable efficiency when you understand the odds.
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