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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 20:22 Reply with quote Back to top

K, here's what's got me bugged. The house rules on Journeymen are kind of vague. I understand why: when they were made we didn't know the ins and outs of Journeymen. But now we've come to a point where all-Journeyman teams and stuff are coming up, and they seem to skate on the edge of these rules even though it's quite clearly just a fluff consideration (there is no mechanical advantage in running Journeymen if money is not an issue: you'd be better without the Loner.) So in the interest of spurring the conversation that will lead to improving the house rules for competitive divisions, and in the interest of improving overall awareness of the game, I'd like to see if we can get a sense of how people use Journeymen.

These are the Journeyman practices I've used or seen. Please let me know if you have used or seen others. Admins, if you'd kindly weigh in on where you think the line is for any of these practices.

1) Cash-poor teams who lose players often run Journeymen until they can replace the losses. This is the most common usage. It seems to me that the most optimal method is to hire MVP Journeymen and critical positionals as fast as possible, and then to save up until they can hire everyone else all at once, maybe with a little money left over so they don't have to do it again right away if one guy goes down.

2) Teams with a lot of missing players, but who have their permanent rosters pretty much set, often run Journeymen for a game to clear MNGs. This is the second-most-common use.

3) Teams forced to rebuild may find themselves cutting healthy "chaff" in order to remain competitive, using Journeymen in place, in the same manner as #1. This was hard to pull off in earlier LRBs, because trimming treasury was so important. But between Journeymen and the natural hoarding effect of teams that get a little run going, it's common now.

4) League teams may use Journeymen as a means of controlling their TV ahead of coming matches. This is pointless in Ranked or Box, because your 11th body at retail price is way better than his cash value in anything else. But in League games and tournaments, declining the last Journeyman can get you a star instead.

5) Some leagues (NCBB, say) require healthy retirements, sometimes en masse. Journeymen are the only way teams subjected to these rules remain competitive.

6) Some [R] teams run new players as Journeymen for one game each and hire them if they don't suffer any mishap, just as a way of randomizing player names for fluff.

Is there anything else? Re #1, where's the line? Say you're Norse in a competitive division, and you're down to 8 men. You really want to replace your dead Ulf and buy a Snow Troll, but you have just 100k now.
a) Can you wait one more game and get a positional or MVP Journeyman rather than hiring linos now?
b) Can you let your cash ride until you got say 150k, then get your Ulf if you don't get an MVP Lino, and then save up until you have 180k and repeat with the Snow Troll?
c) Can you let your cash ride until you have 250k and hire both? Can you let your cash ride until you have 350k and know that you can cover the inevitable dead body in the next game?
d) In the case of c), if you start losing more men, is there a point where you have to stop digging and just hire what you can, or can you trust in your ability to concentrate the beating on your Journeymen until you hoard the cash you need to rebuild all at once?

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What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
Dalfort



Joined: Jun 23, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 20:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I was under the self imposed guideline that having less money than the most expensive purchase (positional or RR) was not going to incur anybodies wrath, I also used the team bio to state if I was "saving" up for a particular item.

As for my opinion on a specific team having 10 JM for 1 game for fluff, I do not see it as abuse as it is clearly "advertised" the intent and for the sake of a good historic team I can see no problem. JM abuse was imo a perceived flaw which allowed coaches to "hoard" VAST amounts of money to avoid spiralling expenses, whether this has actually manifested is debatable, does this contravene the site rules? let the admins decide and live by their unenviable decision (or wait until Christer is bored of too many threads and takes his ball home!)

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 20:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Translation:

I plagued harvestmouse on this for weeks. However, now he's now gone, and we've had a totally bizarre situation come up, with an even more bizarre ruling/reason for the ruling. I now would like to know, what I can/can't get away with. Because I love gaming the system.

We've got a few threads running right now, with views, which roughly translate as "Hi, I play on this site for free, give pretty much nothing, but I'm unhappy with/or I want something improved or I'm going to be really really unhappy with playing here for free".

I have a new poll; that can we rename the forums to the "I need an obvious skill choice, tattooed on my forehead so I can remember next time. I want to argue something pointless, who's up for it? I'm a spoilt brat who's playing here for free and have a complaint about the environment, you're funding for me to do nothing but grief (the bloody cheek of it!)
Woodstock



Joined: Dec 11, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 20:35
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

1) That is fine to a certain limit (see below)
2) for every MNG you can have a loner
3) firing healthy players is not against the rules
4) We don't care what you do in leagues.
5) We don't care what you do in leagues.
6) As long as they don't hoard money, that is fine.


Simple guide line, NOT a black and white ruling, as long as have around 2x the most expensive player as cash, you can use loners to rebuild your team and be prepared to replace injured/dead players.

Edit: Fluff reasons are NOT valid reasons to break the site rules.
Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 20:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Woodstock wrote:

Edit: Fluff reasons are NOT valid reasons to break the site rules.


Fluff hater! Sad

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 21:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Woodstock wrote:
1) That is fine to a certain limit (see below)
2) for every MNG you can have a loner
3) firing healthy players is not against the rules
4) We don't care what you do in leagues.
5) We don't care what you do in leagues.
6) As long as they don't hoard money, that is fine.


Simple guide line, NOT a black and white ruling, as long as have around 2x the most expensive player as cash, you can use loners to rebuild your team and be prepared to replace injured/dead players.

Edit: Fluff reasons are NOT valid reasons to break the site rules.
Thank you. This is the clarification I was looking for. The bit about fluff not being a valid reason to break the rules is quite understandable, but it's another matter if holding the cash for one game la certain Human-type teams doesn't constitute hoarding.

@HM: I don't get the vitriol. I'm not looking for cheese, I'm looking to make sure that the constant stream of ideas I can't turn off doesn't get me into trouble. Most notably I found a way to consistently get games with a competitive build and a Super-Star or Legend tag, and I'm glad that Woodstock seems to be saying I don't have to abandon it on a technicality.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 22:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Right......what you want, is to use roster management in ways that are way out side of the spirit of the game, to give you the best chance of winning, even if this is against players who build their teams conventionally and stand absolutely no chance unless there's a dicing.

And you see this from practically any match that has a match report (not aiming this at anyone in particular). 'Total dicing this one, I should never have lost!' Duh.....of course you shouldn't have, you shouldn't lose any game with fair dice really.

I think, from when you wished for clarification before, I was quite clear. On what would happen if you did break the rules, however you pushed and pushed, and wanted to know exactly what you could and couldn't get away with. I'm happy to paste the whole conversation if you have forgotten.

Anyway, this is your's and your ilk's site now, not mine. I have absolutely no interest in how things are, and I don't think I'm alone looking at playing numbers. The game, the complaining, the picking/uber gaming has become farcical. I no longer have any interest bar creativity of new projects.

Selfishness from those that give nothing and expect everything, does irk me though.
Frankenstein



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 22:16 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
@HM: I don't get the vitriol.

It's only remotely related to FUMBBL, therefore those rants shouldn't be taken too seriously.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 22:16 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
We've got a few threads running right now, with views, which roughly translate as "Hi, I play on this site for free, give pretty much nothing, but I'm unhappy with/or I want something improved or I'm going to be really really unhappy with playing here for free".

I have a new poll; that can we rename the forums to the "I need an obvious skill choice, tattooed on my forehead so I can remember next time. I want to argue something pointless, who's up for it? I'm a spoilt brat who's playing here for free and have a complaint about the environment, you're funding for me to do nothing but grief (the bloody cheek of it!)


Look, harvestmouse, this was always your problem as a moderator. You held all the posters in the forums, collectively, so low in esteem that you were positively unable to read charitably, or get along with anyone. You didn't draw a line between the (very few, very moderate) real trolls on these forums, and everybody else. You were always on the defensive from the get-go. And everybody knew it, too.

Besides, what's so bad about the pointless skill choice threads? The people who post to them get to show off and the people who start them usually get sound advice. You are basically just saying "STFU + L2P" which is not very welcoming to inexperienced players to say the least.

You get what you give.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 22:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Forums aren't the place for skill choice threads, in my opinion. It is invasive on all members, when there is most likely an answer for those willing to look for an answer. If they are unwilling to look or put in the work, then they're unworthy of an answer.

Blogs, are non-invasive; the help section (which encourages coaches to use the help section, which members have spent many hours creating; or forum searches, will in nearly every case give the answer and save the average user ploughing through worthless topics.

As for your first paragraph; it's opinionated and not worth arguing against, pretty much like anything Frankenstein spouts, who's so bitter, he makes me look like a watermelon.
BillBrasky



Joined: Feb 15, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 22:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Can't we all just be friends??
Ziggyny



Joined: Mar 20, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 22:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Someone who truly believes that a post on a forum is invasive could really stand to use a break for their own benefit.
Macavity



Joined: Nov 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 22:51 Reply with quote Back to top

The real problem with the forums is that off-topic doesn't show up in recent threads!



Twisted Evil

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Frankenstein



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 22:53 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
Forums aren't the place for skill choice threads, in my opinion. It is invasive on all members, when there is most likely an answer for those willing to look for an answer. If they are unwilling to look or put in the work, then they're unworthy of an answer.

Blogs, are non-invasive; the help section (which encourages coaches to use the help section, which members have spent many hours creating; or forum searches, will in nearly every case give the answer and save the average user ploughing through worthless topics.

As for your first paragraph; it's opinionated and not worth arguing against, pretty much like anything Frankenstein spouts, who's so bitter, he makes me look like a watermelon.

Nice trolling attempt, though inefficient, as you don't hold any power to tease me and your comment is all about yourself anyway and hardly related to me.

Analogous to another currently popular thread:
If someone makes a homophobic statement, that doesn't tell much about gay people but very much about the person making that statement.

That said:
Why is it that you are so bitter (and please don't pretend it's got anything to do with FUMBBL)? There gotta be means to help you.

Incidentally, what Bill says.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2014 - 23:10 Reply with quote Back to top

My point is 2 fold:

With this site, you have something wonderful. A great game that is totally free. There are no hidden agendas and nothing is expected from the members. It's purely a fan site for fans of the game. Having such an environment, how does that make you feel? For me, I feel it should be supported and I'd want to give anything to make it successful and thrive/survive. Yet what I see, is members who play hundreds/thousands of games here complaining about certain situations, yet give nothing themselves.

The other thing I'm seeing, is abusing the spirit of the game. Playing the game in a way, that if coaches play how the spirit is intended, they stand little chance. This then leads to those who cannot adapt quickly leaving the site, and those that can, also playing outside of the spirit.

This has happened to many many games before. It tends to lead to the games downfall, until all that is left, is a small hardcore, that stay to the bitter end. The sorry fact about this particular game is; that it's not here to make a profit, it can't make changes to handicap the abusers and that if it fails, everybody loses. In short, you break the game, we all lose, so why try?

The answer is the same to both question, shortsighted selfishness.
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