| Poll |
| DE Runner rolls doubles for his first skill, what would you take? |
| Guard: elves always need Guard! |
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30% |
[ 7 ] |
| Dodge: don't slow his development, he'll just die before you get Dodge/Pass/Block/NoS |
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26% |
[ 6 ] |
| Other (explain below) |
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17% |
[ 4 ] |
| Strong Arm or Pie |
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26% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 23 |
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kilinrax
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
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 Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 18:54 |
 
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This guy threw doubles for his first skill:
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=10421850
Normally I'd take Dodge. My gut says never to ignore Guard with elves, wondering if this was a mistake. I've also currently got exactly the same dilemma with my TT team.
I haven't played any games since selecting the skill with either side, so they can both be changed. This is more of a general question; in this situation what should I do? It seems much less clear than doubles on Blitzers, Witches or Lines. |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:18 |
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Most teams dont play that many games. I'm guessing he could pick a normal skill, like dodge, pass or surehands. The alternative is mb, to get po later with high probability. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 19:26 |
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Personally I think runners are a waste of space on a DE team, so I'd lean towards taking guard because it will help you the most and get him killed more quickly.
Now if this were a line elf you take guard in a heartbeat. On a blitzer you take MB if it's your 1st MB and then probably more guard since guard is great on elfs. If it were a witch elf you take MB, almost never would take guard on a witch. |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:33 |
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This is a wichling, weaker then a witch. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 19:51 |
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Runners are ok-ish. With that said their most efficient short term use is to carry a leader, and protect your ball ocassionally, when:
- strip ball dancers attacks
- when he retrieves the ball, and you cant protect it (which comes up very often.)
With that said the 2 skills they should start with are sure hands or leader. Ignore any double on them. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 20:25 |
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I wouldn't have a runner on my team, but if I did I would invest as few SPP as I could in him. This rules out guard. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 20:34 |
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My advice? Wait more than 1 1/2 hours and 4 responses before choosing a skill.
If it's worth asking (and you really aren't sure), better to get a spectrum of advice, as early-advice may fade in the face of convincing (and "better") counter-arguments that show up later.
That said, you're lucky - together the above, on average, represent a well above-average selection of DElf coaches, and there's some solid advice found there. (Could easily have gone the other way.) 
I'll add +! to the idea that Runners are a mistake to start with. AV 7 is a soft target, and they ~need~ several skills to be useful - that's 31-51 spp that are NOT on a Blitzer or Witch.
On the last Runner I had (none recently, tyvm) I chose Guard (similarly, a 1st-skill and early team-skill), and always held my breath whenever he was up-front and took a shot - but wasn't too sad to see him go. Too many AV 7 to keep protected, and without "real" skills they can't defend themselves when forced onto Defense.
But as an early team skill, I think you take the Guard and accept the risk. He'll die, but will help others score/skill until then.
(If it was a more developed team, one that ~could~ possibly protect him, then the idea of a Sure Hands ball-handler works too.) |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 01:40 |
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If it is a short term team, then I would take guard but else Leader as it helps keep you TV low and you want to have at least dodge on your guard.
It also feels off to have a ball carrier pick guard, sure it can help removing marking players but still you will put him in contact just because gaurd is that good.
So it contradicts what he should do and with AV7 I really want some protection on my guard and to have it mobile. Still it should be doable to feed him TDs as he is the perfect support for a catcher formation for Dark Elves 2TTD, frenzy chain-push off the guard to get rid of markers and than just run it in with the MA7.
So yeah come to think of it guard does make sense  |
_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 01:47 |
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I had a great Superstar ST4, MB Blodge Tackle Runner once.
He died. |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 02:11 |
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Don't they all die to the careful attention of repeated boots to the face?
I had my ST4 blitzer die like that too. |
_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 03:50 |
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I agree with El Jairo.
If it is a team you think you will only play Short Term take Guard.
If you think you will play the team long-term take Mighty Blow and use him as a Blitzer and not a Runner.
Either that or ignore the double and do whatever you were going to do with him. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 20:58 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | | If you think you will play the team long-term take Mighty Blow and use him as a Blitzer and not a Runner. |
MB on a Runner? This ~is~ CRP, so MB is never "bad", but imo there's much better skills to be found, sorry.
You have 5-6* other MA 7 players who are your heavy hitters - 4 are higher AV and already have Block, and Jump Up+Frenzy on your WE(s)*. THOSE are your go-to hitters, something more appropriate should fall on this no-skill AV 7 guy.
(* Not all coaches believe in 2 WE's - ymmv.)
The reason people are suggesting Guard is that they don't believe in the value of a Runner on a DElf team (or not on a ~rookie~ team, at least). So, yeah, AV 7 Guard will get broken, but that will pro'ly happen to this guy anyway, and you'll get the ~most~ out of him until then, and then you can replace him with a Lino like Nuffle intended and not waste any more spp on him.
(As an aside, I'll add that if you DO need to try a OTS and only have MA 7, Guard on the ballcarrier can turn some of those blocks into 3D's - very handy.)
This topic has been wrung out before - see here: https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=23097
| El_Jairo wrote: | | ...but else Leader as it helps keep you TV low and you want to have at least dodge on your guard. |
It costs 30k in TV for Leader*, and you get +1 MA and -1 AV, and all other skills come that much slower (10 spp to the "1st" real skill, then 15 to the "2nd", etc.)
(* +10 for the Runner +20k for the normal skill. Same on anyone else, but then just a flat +30k for a Double skill.)
For all that, all you're doing is changing potential Inducments by +/-20k in your favour - which most coaches would not believe is worth the loss of a more immediately useful skill on the field. All you're doing is spending 1 skill (20k) that is then useless on the field to negate 20k in opponents' Inducements - which is 20k negated for them.
The lesson? At only 100k for RR's ("costing" 50k TV), just buy the RR, don't trust it to an AV 7 player with no defensive skills (no Block/Dodge) who must then be protected AND put in on both O and D. |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 21:39 |
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Duh, the reason to take MB is not to use MB (he has no block) but that the combo MB+PO is so strong, and so hard to get on elf teams. Thus as a rule of thumb, if first skill pick MB, if player has Blodge already (or if you completely lack guard on a developed team) chose Guard. Take Witch elfs for example, as a first skill pick Juggernaut is so much better then MB (surfs, no turnover on blitzes allow you to get more SPPs etc), but the probability of you rolling another double on her way to superstar is so high, its long term better to go MB. Juggernaut makes you win games now, MB means you win games 10-20 games from now. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 21:40 |
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Retire - Runners are the suck. |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 21:42 |
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What about Dump-Off Smeat? Isn't that worth 20k?
So you gain 40k TV get a MA 7 ball carrier, with leader. Hmm I guess both players needed protection.
So that would be 2 birds with one stone. And if he gets blitzed, he can dump it off.
So typically I give him NoS (after dodge) to really frustrate the opponent with a dodgy ball.
Even if the pass didn't work you have better control of where on the pitch the ball starts to scatter.
And yes that all comes with a price of AV7.
So you might get another one with Dodge, NoS too! you can follow up with Safe Throw to ridicule the defensive line to throw the ball over their faces. If they do succeed in locking you in.
As I find the blitzing part of the DE can usually free up any elf that can run off with the ball. If combined with some leap you can reverse the lock in a turn. Provide TZ to dodge into and they will be risking a 4+ dodge or worse for a blitz. Nice food for TRR. Except those pesky BullCs with BT... and dodge.... 
I would prefer AG5 leap but yet 1 leap on the team really changes tactics.
With one Runner you have 8 guys to protect 3 AV7 players of which two come with an aggressive temper to hold off any assailants. As long as those players have dodge een keep away from the frontline, they can dodge out of trouble easily. |
_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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