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Poll
Is the Blackbox welcome message misleading?
Yes, and I play mostly box.
43%
 43%  [ 35 ]
No, and I play mostly box.
7%
 7%  [ 6 ]
Yes, and I play mostly other divisions.
28%
 28%  [ 23 ]
No, and I play mostly other divisions.
13%
 13%  [ 11 ]
Unsure
7%
 7%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 81


Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 21:50 Reply with quote Back to top

In my opinion, the Blackbox division description is misleading.


It tells new coaches to:
1. dont join box yet, its too dangerous
2. if you do join, at least chose a bash team

With the number of new coaches increasing these days, it's important to ensure they don't get a misinformed introduction to the site.

I think this comment by a newly arrived coach illustrates this point well.

Quote:
I have 2 teams in box - chaos and chaos dwarves because it basically said that box was full of tough team so I thought lets play bashy teams.


The box is versatile, soft and cuddly at low TV, and sometimes even at high TV, so why persuade newly arrived coaches to stay away, or worse: make them bring only bash?

Here's the current text:
Quote:
The Blackbox division is a highly competitive, cut-throat division where coaches are not able to choose who they play against. The toughest, roughest teams compete for glory in this division and there is no mercy for the weak!

Note that this division is NOT for newcomers to either Blood Bowl nor FUMBBL.


I think the text should have less hyperbole and instead of "marketing" it as a dangerous place where only "cut throat" teams are, instead focus on the statistical differences, and the fact it was made to have an alternative to the open structure for ranked.

I invite coaches (especially those who play a lot of box) to suggest new texts in this thread.


EDIT: Since the start of this thread, the welcome message has been changed slightly. It now reads:

Quote:
The Blackbox division is a highly competitive, cut-throat division where coaches are not able to choose who they play against. The toughest, roughest teams compete for glory in this division and there is no mercy for the weak!

This division is not recommended for newcomers to Blood Bowl.


Last edited by Balle2000 on Jan 20, 2016 - 15:54; edited 3 times in total
BillBrasky



Joined: Feb 15, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 22:25 Reply with quote Back to top

"This competitive division supports random matches."

*PC edit*

Anything about the Box not being for newcomers is probably not desired. At least without about being targeted by newbie snipers, they might enjoy & learn a bit without being driven off.

I think we all understand how horribly newcomers are abused and taken advantage of in other "competitive" divisions.


Last edited by BillBrasky on Nov 10, 2015 - 22:34; edited 1 time in total
easilyamused



Joined: Jun 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 22:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Do not start the whole R vs B debate again please Bill.

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Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 22:40 Reply with quote Back to top

"This division uses random match making to determine your opponent"

There, that sums up the division quite nicely I'd say.

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Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 23:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Blackbox is the alternative to ranked. Here you are randomly matched Via a matchmaking system with draws every 15 minutes. Are you ready to take all comers? What fate awaits you? Blackbox is for the most flexible competitive and fiercest coaches! Are you ready to box?
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 23:14 Reply with quote Back to top

No, I think it's correct. In fact I think it was me who suggested changing it. Blackbox formula is not noob friendly. Ideally we'd have a division for them but right now we don't.

Of course, there are noob hunters in ranked, but with a little savvy you can spot them. The best thing, is for coaches to help new players. This could be done by box coaches who help the coaches get used to the game in League and then when you feel they're ready suggest Box.

The idea & wording (which was done by Christer and Box is his baby), were never meant as a Ranked vs Box issue. I can assure you of that.


Last edited by harvestmouse on Nov 10, 2015 - 23:15; edited 1 time in total
cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 23:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Uedder wrote:
Blackbox is the alternative to ranked. Here you are randomly matched Via a matchmaking system with draws every 15 minutes. Are you ready to take all comers? What fate awaits you? Blackbox is for the most flexible competitive and fiercest coaches! Are you ready to box?


+1

Replace "Are you ready to box" with " ARR you ready to box?" and it's perfect Smile
MrNomad



Joined: Mar 24, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 23:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Uedder wrote:
Blackbox is the alternative to ranked. Here you are randomly matched Via a matchmaking system with draws every 15 minutes. Are you ready to take all comers? What fate awaits you? Blackbox is for the most flexible competitive and fiercest coaches! Are you ready to box?


I like this one. It gives a strong impression that it will be tough but also it will challenge you the most if that is what new coaches are looking for.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 23:37 Reply with quote Back to top

But new coaches do not understand or know what they're looking for. The ability to choose and make a mistake is much better than being controlled to take a match up, which feels unfair.

The issue of having a default division was removed (which at one point favoured Box, then moved to favour Ranked) Christer spent time doing that purely because he didn't want one division favoured over another.


Last edited by harvestmouse on Nov 10, 2015 - 23:39; edited 2 times in total
rollup1A4



Joined: Oct 17, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't like dissuading coaches from blackbox but not from ranked. If the "problem" is that new coaches get picked on in box, that doesn't make sense; a new coach isn't going to spot cherrypickers in ranked either. If the problem is that teams are too bashy in the box, well then the message doesn't accomplish much there either. I don't think the box should be hyped up as some sort of masochistic experience, as that's a very self fulfilling prophecy. Maybe people wouldn't retire soft teams after game 15 to avoid 16+ match killers if soft teams didn't retire after game 15. Unless of course you don't want new people to have access to random matchmaking, for some reason, but that seems arbitrary and limiting.

I would think that the best way to make random matchmaking newbie friendly would be to encourage newbies to do random matchmaking. Similarly, the best way to make random matchmaking "softer" would be to encourage more soft teams to take part.

EDIT: Also to pitch a slogan/stay on topic: "Blackbox is a competitive division where matches are randomly assigned based on TV." Simple is best.
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 23:48 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
The ability to choose and make a mistake is much better than being controlled to take a match up, which feels unfair.

This argument swings both ways.

I reckon playing a new team in box is at least as fair an experience as you will encounter in ranked. If not more, considering those cherrypicker "mishaps".

Take into consideration that since you played box, the new scheduling formula makes the first 20-30 or so games for a team a balanced varied experience. Without the problem of cherry picking, and with the scheduling protecting you against minmaxers.

Instead of describing the divisions in terms of difficulty (and failing at that), the site could for example focus on which teams you should start your FUMBBL career with, and what you will learn from each imho. And encourage newcomers to try a bit of everything.


harvestmouse wrote:
The idea & wording (which was done by Christer and Box is his baby), were never meant as a Ranked vs Box issue.

Of course not, and neither is this thread. Merely about a misleading introduction to the Blackbox that exists today (I reckon you have to be playing box now to evaluate it).
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 23:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Well they may spot a cherrypicker, they may not. This isn't the key issue here though; which is worse ranked or box? Personally I'd throw them League and Stunty way.

Also remembering being 'picked' isn't necessarily bad. The first guy I played on the site picked me badly, but he made it a good experience and I learnt a lot. A picker would generally leave the coach with the feeling of wanting to play them again. But that's neither here nor there. The ability to choose your match ups and not face match ups that were chosen for you that are too harsh is the reasoning.
cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2015 - 23:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I think you will never agree or convince each other.
Maybe better is to have a Poll with the question "Should the Box welcoming message change?" I bet that Yes would win easily.

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Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2015 - 00:00 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
Also remembering being 'picked' isn't necessarily bad.

Not all wrong what you say about Ranked, but I wasn't really talking about Ranked when I started this thread.

The intro-text about Box is somewhat misleading. And by describing it as a scary place, it encourages newcomers to join with bash teams. So it's slightly misleading and possibly counter-productive to what most FUMBBLers want the box to be.


edit: @cdassak maybe that would have been even better, but this poll provides some nuances. not a big issue imo.


Last edited by Balle2000 on Nov 11, 2015 - 00:05; edited 1 time in total
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2015 - 00:05 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
But new coaches do not understand or know what they're looking for. The ability to choose and make a mistake is much better than being controlled to take a match up, which feels unfair.

The issue of having a default division was removed (which at one point favoured Box, then moved to favour Ranked) Christer spent time doing that purely because he didn't want one division favoured over another.


If you do not have the ability to discern between scenarios, then you do not have the ability to control outcomes, ergo, you end up being the one under the control of another.

In the box, this is bowlbot. In ranked, you are also being controlled, as a newbie, whether you are aware of it or not. There's countless complaints from people in irc or posts over the last months about only being offered games by "legends and superstars" in gamefinder.

All I'm seeing in your posts is a cognitive dissonance and severe bias towards one set of "pickings", ignoring the fact that there are people in box who will, on acknowledging a newbie, do exactly as you have said those "pickers" will do and help them out and refer them to the 145 club etc if necessary (where I believe you'll also find at least one well-known box coach going out his way to help newbies as well). You've stated that the wording was never meant as "ranked vs box", and yet almost single-handedly are turning the thread that way.
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