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Pablets



Joined: Nov 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 13:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Mr Joshua When I encounter a mino in Estalia I sing this estalian song in a karaoke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFkI-zxZlHo In Estalia people say "The Fary is god, with permission of Myrmidia"
Dunenzed



Joined: Oct 28, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 13:34 Reply with quote Back to top

plasmoid wrote:
Oh, one more thing:
This may be a good idea for some. Not me:
If human catchers (or other AG3 team catchers) were bumped to AG4, then it would make their Throwers totally redundant.
Speed and AG simply makes for better ball movers. Just like on the Skaven team, where the Throwers primarily serve as glorified linemen - if they are bought at all.
Cheers
Martin


This is the core of my objection to an AG4 catcher on the human team under the current ruleset.

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Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 13:43 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
Pablets wrote:
mister__joshua wrote:
I think from a fluff perspective that 60k re-rolls is fine.

I'm glad you're happy with your new Diestros but I don't think they'd see much play. Stab tends to be very weak in a non-stunty environment, normally leaving you standing next to someone better at hitting than you. Playability is as important as fluff in roster creation IMO. I think 7 2 4 7 Dodge, Side Step GA gives you a very fun and thematic but also useful player. Dauntless would be gravy if you bumped the price.


The problem i see with your diestro version is that agility 4 i think is too high for humans, except that we were talking about a ninja or something like this.


The problem is, we aren't seeing universal lists that are based off of each other.

The Zon and original Norse lists really muddied the water.

They were "what would happen if took a very powerful skill and gave it across the board access, what would we have to do to balance it?"

The answer is; it didn't work. So we have the new Norse list based off of some older weird list that had no relation to anything else. This list especially really does need tweaking to be more in line with the others. Definitive roll of a runner (is he a quasi catcher or a thrower). Definitive roll for a berserker.

Further more we now have the Slann list that is based off of 2nd edition BB with the ag4 catcher. This is good..........but you need other lists to follow.

So making human catchers 8247 would be good; making them 8238 just confuses things further.

We now have zons at 6337, slann at 7247, Norse (called a runner) at 7337 elves at 8347 apart from woodies 8247 and humans now(if CRP+ comes in) 8238. A total total mess, with totally different skillsets too. I'm not saying they all have to be the same, but they need to compare better than this.

Like MrJ my opinion shouldn't count for that much either (e.g. the mino). I also wouldn't use the list and would make my own.


I am not old enough to really have experienced that but teams with catchers with 1 AG higher than the linemen sounds like a very interesting idea.

I wonder what would happen with teams like Khemri being really shafted but there must be a way around that if thought seriously about.

I am also not a fan of the Human AV increase with CRP+, I think it does make things more messed up when since positions are supposed to be less hard more agile/speedy.

If it was Runners base 7337 with surehands and Catchers base 8247 with catch. Then slight skill or access differences to tweak for racial differences it would I think make things more thematic.

Where do you stand on ST3 elven catchers in that roster building environment? I don't see them as a great problem if they have ST 3. The average elf is more agile for the same ST than a human and faster than a runner for the same strength. They are usually more lightly armoured or faster over most other races.

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 13:52
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Dunenzed wrote:
plasmoid wrote:
Oh, one more thing:
This may be a good idea for some. Not me:
If human catchers (or other AG3 team catchers) were bumped to AG4, then it would make their Throwers totally redundant.
Speed and AG simply makes for better ball movers. Just like on the Skaven team, where the Throwers primarily serve as glorified linemen - if they are bought at all.
Cheers
Martin


This is the core of my objection to an AG4 catcher on the human team under the current ruleset.


It's not something I've thought about much, and you wouldn't change it as it's ingrained in the system, but I'm thinking this problem may be rooted in Throwing being based on Agility when really is isn't an Agility discipline. People can be good at throwing and catching, but not agile. And vice versa. Maybe BB should have a separate 'handling' or 'balling' stat?

Anyway, that's not really on topic anymore so I'll stop... Smile

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Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 14:02 Reply with quote Back to top

plasmoid wrote:
Oh, one more thing:
This may be a good idea for some. Not me:
If human catchers (or other AG3 team catchers) were bumped to AG4, then it would make their Throwers totally redundant.
Speed and AG simply makes for better ball movers. Just like on the Skaven team, where the Throwers primarily serve as glorified linemen - if they are bought at all.
Cheers
Martin


I think MV 9 Gutters without catch might have something to do with it. After all AG3 surehands is actually slightly better pick up than straight AG4 no RR. Same if you then need to pass it, the inbuilt RR makes them better than AG4 no pass no RR. And makes it more TV efficient to have AG3 surehands pass catch for that type of play than extra RRs to cover it. Or just surehands catch for a hand off. They are still decent when you run out of RRs and you can save the RRs you do buy for other things like blocks and blitzes.

The difference of the teams to me at least make it seem that this won't happen that much. At least I won't be doing it. Losing surehands and pass and thus maybe needing another RR is 10TV more for a similar thing. Plus you then might might want to try and take the skills on the catchers which probably reduces their utility on defence and gives less skills for the same TV on the player.

When Humans are supposed to be decent at everything and that reflected in the starting skills and the extra AV compared against the Skaven thrower for the cost those are the reasons that to me make the skaven thrower not worth taking as much as a human one. And why AG4 catchers would not change that as much as you think.

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Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 14:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I think I have worked out why I don't like this roster as much as it's last incarnation. The Fury Sisters, basically more agile less armoured troll slayers. I think it takes something away from the dwarves and their slayers for a ST3 roster to have block dauntless frenzy off the bat.

Yeah they get thick skull and I think cost less? than the fury sisters here but I don't really like it.

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Pablets



Joined: Nov 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 14:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Matthueycamo wrote:
I think I have worked out why I don't like this roster as much as it's last incarnation. The Fury Sisters, basically more agile less armoured troll slayers. I think it takes something away from the dwarves and their slayers for a ST3 roster to have block dauntless frenzy off the bat.

Well Matthueycamo i would like to get a minotaur for the team, but i´m trying to create a team according official information of Warhammer.
In Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Tome of Salvation are described the priest/warriors of Myrmidia and specifically to the Order of Fury composed mainly of women. I think my Fury Sisters is good interpretation of them.
They are like Troll Slayers but beatiful. Laughing


Last edited by Pablets on Apr 22, 2016 - 15:09; edited 1 time in total
Pablets



Joined: Nov 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 15:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Matthueycamo wrote:

Yeah they get thick skull and I think cost less? than the fury sisters here but I don't really like it.

Troll Slayer -1 MA, -1AG, Same AV +Thick Skull, i think Fury Sister price is right.
Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 15:28 Reply with quote Back to top

The price is irrelevant, they could cost 200TV and I still would not think they fit Blood Bowl without taking something from existing rosters.

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 15:43
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I think that depends on environment to a degree. Where are you planning on using this roster? If you're using it at home for a small Tabletop league then it's fair enough, there migh tnot even be Dwarves. If you plan on using it with all the other CRP rosters then you have to think more about consistency of concepts.

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plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 15:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Pablets,
nice work, I like your team. Which to some will mean that you're doing something very wrong!
I have no idea how well the team actually plays, but I agree with most of your decisions.

I understand while you lean towards CRP rather than 2nd ed. BB.
And I understand why you prefer official GW fluff over fan faction fluff.
That will make your team understandable to the most BB players.

I totally agree with not using a Minotaur. The bull fighting connection is very flimsy, and either way the Bull/Mino is an enemy, not an ally.
I also agree with avoiding AG4 for the reasons previously stated - even more so when you wanted to avoid throwing.

I love the diestro. I think it is a much bigger threat than the ill fated dark elf assassin.
MA8 (with Dodge) makes it a real threat. And Dodge SideStep makes it hard to push off. If I played them, I'd probably pick Block first, then Jump Up.
Guardians are fine, even though I don't have the problem with Blocker name that Harvestmouse has - and calling them Guardians may well earn you criticism from other players, who dislike too many non-BB titles on the same team.

ReRolls at 60K or 70K are both fine. It will read as 'worse than standard humans' either way.

For the lineman you might consider a 6337+skill. That seems to be the humans of CRP
(Thrall 6337, Norse 6337 Block, Amazon 6337 Dodge, Human 6337+AV)
Either way, the stat line will be understandable for a "human lineman"
Cheers
Martin
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 16:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh, for the Sisters - if people don't like that the skills are almost identical to a Troll Slayer, then you could make a small change.
Yours is the 4th berserker in the game:
Witch Elf: Frenzy, Jump Up, Dodge
Norse Blitzer: Frenzy, Jump Up, Block
Troll Slayer: Frenzy, Dauntless, Block, Thick skull

So. Needs Frenzy. And Jump Up or Block. And perhaps a 3rd skill?
Should be noted that the 2 block ones are on teams where everyone has block, so block might not be a 'berserker' trait.

Cheers
Martin
Pablets



Joined: Nov 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 16:36 Reply with quote Back to top

plasmoid wrote:


For the lineman you might consider a 6337+skill. That seems to be the humans of CRP
(Thrall 6337, Norse 6337 Block, Amazon 6337 Dodge, Human 6337+AV)
Either way, the stat line will be understandable for a "human lineman"
Cheers
Martin

Thanks for your opinions. With linemen i think they must got AV8… they are simples humans like empire humans. Basically Norses and Amazones got AV7 cause they are almost naked, and Thralls are sick and weak.
Pablets



Joined: Nov 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 16:39 Reply with quote Back to top

plasmoid wrote:
Oh, for the Sisters - if people don't like that the skills are almost identical to a Troll Slayer, then you could make a small change.
Yours is the 4th berserker in the game:
Witch Elf: Frenzy, Jump Up, Dodge
Norse Blitzer: Frenzy, Jump Up, Block
Troll Slayer: Frenzy, Dauntless, Block, Thick skull

So. Needs Frenzy. And Jump Up or Block. And perhaps a 3rd skill?
Should be noted that the 2 block ones are on teams where everyone has block, so block might not be a 'berserker' trait.

Cheers
Martin

How do you exactly imagine them? I would like to see your Fury sister rosters.
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2016 - 19:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Pablets,
I don't know the Estalian fluff, so I don't know what would be appropriate. So please take this with a grain of salt.
Since they're women, you could model them on the witch elf, giving your berserker some finesse:
6338 or 7337 GA Frenzy, Jump Up, SideStep
- SideStep is shared with the Diestros, giving your roster a sub theme. And make them even scarier in a scrum near the sidelines.

Cheers
Martin
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