mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I think from a fluff perspective that 60k re-rolls is fine.
I'm glad you're happy with your new Diestros but I don't think they'd see much play. Stab tends to be very weak in a non-stunty environment, normally leaving you standing next to someone better at hitting than you. Playability is as important as fluff in roster creation IMO. I think 7 2 4 7 Dodge, Side Step GA gives you a very fun and thematic but also useful player. Dauntless would be gravy if you bumped the price. |
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"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
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Pablets
Joined: Nov 02, 2007
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 Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 15:21 |
 
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| mister__joshua wrote: | I think from a fluff perspective that 60k re-rolls is fine.
I'm glad you're happy with your new Diestros but I don't think they'd see much play. Stab tends to be very weak in a non-stunty environment, normally leaving you standing next to someone better at hitting than you. Playability is as important as fluff in roster creation IMO. I think 7 2 4 7 Dodge, Side Step GA gives you a very fun and thematic but also useful player. Dauntless would be gravy if you bumped the price. |
The problem i see with your diestro version is that agility 4 i think is too high for humans, except that we were talking about a ninja or something like this.
And i think if i create a positional player with agility 4 the thrower´s problem because estalian rivalry would be a big problem. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I don't think Ag4 is any bigger suspension of disbelief than Ma8 or Str2 (which is why I dislike the current Human catcher). I think humans should be 6337, + a MA for fast ones, + an AV for armoured ones. So in that respect 7337 would be suggested. I think as this is a unique and interesting player type you could get away with a bit of variance though.
Anyways, these are just my thoughts. It's your roster so do whatever you feel is best. Could you add the original back to the OP too, for comparison? It's changed a lot; maybe too much  |
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"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 18:48 |
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| Pablets wrote: | | mister__joshua wrote: | I think from a fluff perspective that 60k re-rolls is fine.
I'm glad you're happy with your new Diestros but I don't think they'd see much play. Stab tends to be very weak in a non-stunty environment, normally leaving you standing next to someone better at hitting than you. Playability is as important as fluff in roster creation IMO. I think 7 2 4 7 Dodge, Side Step GA gives you a very fun and thematic but also useful player. Dauntless would be gravy if you bumped the price. |
The problem i see with your diestro version is that agility 4 i think is too high for humans, except that we were talking about a ninja or something like this.
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The problem is, we aren't seeing universal lists that are based off of each other.
The Zon and original Norse lists really muddied the water.
They were "what would happen if took a very powerful skill and gave it across the board access, what would we have to do to balance it?"
The answer is; it didn't work. So we have the new Norse list based off of some older weird list that had no relation to anything else. This list especially really does need tweaking to be more in line with the others. Definitive roll of a runner (is he a quasi catcher or a thrower). Definitive roll for a berserker.
Further more we now have the Slann list that is based off of 2nd edition BB with the ag4 catcher. This is good..........but you need other lists to follow.
So making human catchers 8247 would be good; making them 8238 just confuses things further.
We now have zons at 6337, slann at 7247, Norse (called a runner) at 7337 elves at 8347 apart from woodies 8247 and humans now(if CRP+ comes in) 8238. A total total mess, with totally different skillsets too. I'm not saying they all have to be the same, but they need to compare better than this.
Like MrJ my opinion shouldn't count for that much either (e.g. the mino). I also wouldn't use the list and would make my own. |
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Pablets
Joined: Nov 02, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 22:36 |
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| mister__joshua wrote: | I don't think Ag4 is any bigger suspension of disbelief than Ma8 or Str2 (which is why I dislike the current Human catcher). I think humans should be 6337, + a MA for fast ones, + an AV for armoured ones. So in that respect 7337 would be suggested. I think as this is a unique and interesting player type you could get away with a bit of variance though.
Anyways, these are just my thoughts. It's your roster so do whatever you feel is best. Could you add the original back to the OP too, for comparison? It's changed a lot; maybe too much |
Well, in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd edition, page 38 in Estalian Diestro descrption says "cities sport many fencing schools, each with its own style.".
I think that´s the reason each one of us got a diferent point of view about Diestro. I wonder, What would Master Figueroa think?  |
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Pablets
Joined: Nov 02, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 23:53 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: |
The problem is, we aren't seeing universal lists that are based off of each other.
The Zon and original Norse lists really muddied the water.
They were "what would happen if took a very powerful skill and gave it across the board access, what would we have to do to balance it?"
The answer is; it didn't work. So we have the new Norse list based off of some older weird list that had no relation to anything else. This list especially really does need tweaking to be more in line with the others. Definitive roll of a runner (is he a quasi catcher or a thrower). Definitive roll for a berserker.
Further more we now have the Slann list that is based off of 2nd edition BB with the ag4 catcher. This is good..........but you need other lists to follow.
So making human catchers 8247 would be good; making them 8238 just confuses things further.
We now have zons at 6337, slann at 7247, Norse (called a runner) at 7337 elves at 8347 apart from woodies 8247 and humans now(if CRP+ comes in) 8238. A total total mess, with totally different skillsets too. I'm not saying they all have to be the same, but they need to compare better than this.
Like MrJ my opinion shouldn't count for that much either (e.g. the mino). I also wouldn't use the list and would make my own. |
Yeah mate, but elves and slann are another races, slann catchers are cousins ​​of ninja turtles and elves they all got ag4 cause they do not weigh, no body hair or fat or anything.
But if you observe carefully you can see that in BB human races (Human, Norse or Amazons) nobody got ag4 as starting players, there's like an unwritten anatomical rule that i do not like to break. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2016 - 01:14 |
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Yes, it's a good point about the AG4, however all other anatomical rules with catchers have been broken. For catchers they probably should have broken that one from the start
As I explained, Slann they converted from 2nd edition. All catchers were AG4 in 2nd. Where the other races were made to the new 3rd edition concept. Norse and Zons were made from a completely new idea and now Humans and Woodies have been changed ignoring where they stand compared with the others.
Basically in 2nd edition Block was +ST and Dodge was +AG. So in 3rd these became skills, not physical ability. However ST/Block AG/Dodge do interact. Catch being positive CL of 2nd edition.
You can't use one concept for one roster design then use a totally different one for another, or they interact weirdly.
Probably, they should have made all catchers ST2/AG4 and given elves dodge to start. Norse/Zons being slightly different I guess. |
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Pablets
Joined: Nov 02, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2016 - 01:27 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | Yes, it's a good point about the AG4, however all other anatomical rules with catchers have been broken. For catchers they probably should have broken that one from the start
As I explained, Slann they converted from 2nd edition. All catchers were AG4 in 2nd. Where the other races were made to the new 3rd edition concept. Norse and Zons were made from a completely new idea and now Humans and Woodies have been changed ignoring where they stand compared with the others.
Basically in 2nd edition Block was +ST and Dodge was +AG. So in 3rd these became skills, not physical ability. However ST/Block AG/Dodge do interact. Catch being positive CL of 2nd edition.
You can't use one concept for one roster design then use a totally different one for another, or they interact weirdly.
Probably, they should have made all catchers ST2/AG4 and given elves dodge to start. Norse/Zons being slightly different I guess. |
Yeah but when you say Slann you´re speaking about another races and most important, previous editions of BB, another rules. Now in BB there isn´t currently humans as starters with ag4, not in human race or amazon or norses or marauders of Chaos Pact. And i´m trying to make a team for LBR6, i try. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Apr 22, 2016 - 11:58 |
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Hi Harvestmouse and all,
IMO, if you're looking for a touch more unity on what a catcher is, then the Amazon one is the big offender.
If the girls had a real catcher, it would move them over so slightly away from that 6337 cookie cutter mold.
The Norse Runner was designed as a Runner. There are quite a few Runners in the game by now. Is he called Catcher in CRP? If he is, then could either ignore that heavy handed GW change. Or we'd have to change that roster too.
To me he is understandable as a Runner. As far as I can tell, a Runner is faster than a lineman, and has either P without Pass, or A without Catch (so doesn't fit the Thrower/Catcher mold)
As for the Human catcher, I don't think AG4 brings any coherence to the position as a whole. If Human catcher were AG+ over their linemen, then elven catchers would have to be AG5.
...but that's just my opinion.
I think a Real Amazon catcher would be good for the team.
Off the top of my head, and given that Amazons already have Dodge, perhaps an additional skill would be fitting.
8237 Dodge, Catch (Dauntless?)
Cheers
Martin |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2016 - 12:02 |
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Oh, one more thing:
This may be a good idea for some. Not me:
If human catchers (or other AG3 team catchers) were bumped to AG4, then it would make their Throwers totally redundant.
Speed and AG simply makes for better ball movers. Just like on the Skaven team, where the Throwers primarily serve as glorified linemen - if they are bought at all.
Cheers
Martin |
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Pablets
Joined: Nov 02, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2016 - 12:25 |
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| plasmoid wrote: |
As for the Human catcher, I don't think AG4 brings any coherence to the position as a whole. If Human catcher were AG+ over their linemen, then elven catchers would have to be AG5.
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Very well explained , totally agree. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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With the Str2 Ag4 idea I was looking at the team more in isolation, what would make them fun and different while being internally consistent (Diestros being weaker and more agile than linos).
If you have reservations about this in relation to other humans then I'd use the Norse Runner stat line. Maybe something like:
0-16 Lineman 50,000 6 3 3 8 G SAP
0-4 Diestro 90,000 7 3 3 7 Dodge, Side Step GA SP
0-4 Guard 80,000 6 3 3 9 Block GS AP
0-1 Minotaur 140,000 5 5 2 8 Loner, Frenzy, Horns, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Wild Animal S GAP
Re-roll counter 60,000
Apothecary Yes
Star Players Human
One of the positions should perhaps be 0-2 instead of 0-4, but you get the idea. |
_________________
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2016 - 12:32 |
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[quote="plasmoid"]Hi Harvestmouse and all,
IMO, if you're looking for a touch more unity on what a catcher is, then the Amazon one is the big offender.
If the girls had a real catcher, it would move them over so slightly away from that 6337 cookie cutter mold.[quote="plasmoid"]
As I said there are many offenders.
| plasmoid wrote: | | The Norse Runner was designed as a Runner. There are quite a few Runners in the game by now. |
Yes and we were doing quite well in inventing the 'runner' positional until norse. Faster, less armour than a thrower and has pass access but not pass skill. Then Galak decided to resurrect an extremely amateurish roster that quite frankly most coaches with experience now would know more than the coach that made that roster. For me....using that roster to base a new roster on is about as stupid as you can get. The norse runner has no relation to the other runners or to what we thought a runner would be.
| plasmoid wrote: | | Is he called Catcher in CRP? If he is, then could either ignore that heavy handed GW change. Or we'd have to change that roster too. |
What are you talking about? What heavy handed GW change? Why are you talking to me like I am a child? I know LRB4 Norse to CRP Norse change better than maybe anybody. I know the changes and what happened. Do not condescend me on this issue. The fact is, there were some really iffy fluff changes and now the thrower is less valuable than he was before (and he wasn't of much value then). Ok the roster is more competitive at high TV than he was. However keeping the catchers and changing the thrower to a runner (in align to the other runners) would have been of much better value to the roster and to the game.
| plasmoid wrote: | | To me he is understandable as a Runner. |
Yeah well that is you. And although I respect you on some fronts and I wish to stay on good term. I also respect the work you put in. However quite frankly on some issues like this, I really feel you do not know what you are talking about and your input is extremely detrimental.
| plasmoid wrote: | | As for the Human catcher, I don't think AG4 brings any coherence to the position as a whole. If Human catcher were AG+ over their linemen, then elven catchers would have to be AG5. |
Well know, again you miss the point. ALL catchers in 2nd ed were ag4. The difference in description would be the 'dodge' skill. This adds AG (in a catchers point of view), but in skill rather than full on agility. You clearly do not understand the transition between 2nd ed and 3rd ed. And if it's the case that the transition isn't the way to go, why did one of the last rosters to be added (slann) use that as a transition. And the fact it did use that (along with Underworld) and that they are really interesting rosters to play, mean anything?! Surely it does.
| plasmoid wrote: | | ...but that's just my opinion. |
Yes it is. However your opinion is more widely accessible than anybody else, and that makes a difference. A big difference as we have seen in the last year.
| plasmoid wrote: | I think a Real Amazon catcher would be good for the team.
Off the top of my head, and given that Amazons already have Dodge, perhaps an additional skill would be fitting.
8237 Dodge, Catch (Dauntless?) |
It doesn't take a well educated man (as I have said in this topic) to work out Zons and Norse (especially Zons) do not fit. On many fronts. The whole cookie cutter theme shouldn't have happened. However it did pave the way to other cookie cutter themes. For example frenzy/khorne cookie cutter was correct.
Norse you could make work. Zons..........yeah I'm not sure you could, unless you totally reinvented them. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2016 - 13:03 |
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I'll write a proper response later.
For now, I just want to point out that I did not have my CRP on me, I was on the train with my kids.
So it was an honest question. And you concluding so quickly that I'm being cheeky and condescending as probably not a good sign that this conversation can go anywhere fruitful.
Cheers all the same
Martin |
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Pablets
Joined: Nov 02, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2016 - 13:26 |
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| mister__joshua wrote: | With the Str2 Ag4 idea I was looking at the team more in isolation, what would make them fun and different while being internally consistent (Diestros being weaker and more agile than linos).
If you have reservations about this in relation to other humans then I'd use the Norse Runner stat line. Maybe something like:
0-16 Lineman 50,000 6 3 3 8 G SAP
0-4 Diestro 90,000 7 3 3 7 Dodge, Side Step GA SP
0-4 Guard 80,000 6 3 3 9 Block GS AP
0-1 Minotaur 140,000 5 5 2 8 Loner, Frenzy, Horns, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Wild Animal S GAP
Re-roll counter 60,000
Apothecary Yes
Star Players Human
One of the positions should perhaps be 0-2 instead of 0-4, but you get the idea. |
I love this roster, is another version that also seems good except for the little Mino (Torito bravo).
I keep looking for minos in official Estalia but I have not found anything. |
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