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pokrjax



Joined: Dec 01, 2014

Post   Posted: Jul 11, 2016 - 13:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Great to see a harlequins roster, I'll definitely be making a team. One minor quibble though, I'm not exactly up to date on 40k fluff but shouldn't the majority of 'quins have leap to represent their flip belts?
mr-maverick



Joined: Sep 10, 2010

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 10:47 Reply with quote Back to top

I played my first 40k game yesterday, it was a lot of fun!!!

I feel that there are some changes that are needed to the Tyranids, to fit the fluff (I am a tyranid fan and fielded a huge army back in the day)

Genestealers:
lose extra arms - yes they do have extra arms, but these arms are claws which would be no good for ball carrying etc and this fluff has already been covered by having the claw skill
need to be ag4 - they had one of the highest initiative scores in the game and were always described as having super human reflexes - due to this change they need to be more expensive by 10k

Lictor:
Needs leap skill to fit the fluff and agility access as standard - I'd suggest making either strength or general access a double roll

Zoanthropes:
Need to lose the claw skill and gain no hands - the newest evolution of zoanthrope is basically a floating head and long slender body, with very small limbs
they also need to gain the bombadier to simulate their psychic attacks

The entire team needs mutant access - perhaps change it to doubles across the board as mutations among tyranids are common to see but are also expensive
The full team also needs Nurgle's rot - this would simulate the dead being devoured and churning out more troops - I'd suggest setting it to spit out hormagaunts if possible

To simulate the hive mind connection of some of the creatures the Hive Tyrant, Zoanthropes and Broodlord need the leader skill

There is a LOT of regen across most teams which I think is completely un-needed, in the case of the tyranids this is a skill that you would have only seen on the larger creatures so I would set it to the positional creatures only - the rest of the teams need to be looked at

why is there stab on Necron warriors?? have i forgotten something about them? i can't think of any fluff that would give them this...

Hope this makes sense guys
please reply with your thoughts....

_________________
-Alcohol doesn't solve any problems, but if you think again, neither does milk.
-The early bird catches the worm, but its the second mouse that gets the cheese.
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 12:35 Reply with quote Back to top

These seem sensible suggestions.

I'd totally loose the combat stats from the zoanthrope and make him a backline supportive kind of player. Something like:

0-2 Zoanthrope 4 3 4 7 Accurate, Pass, Bombardier, Safe Throw, Hypnogaze, Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearence GP, AS

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pokrjax



Joined: Dec 01, 2014

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 13:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe lose G access and give the Zoanthrope M on normal rolls - a lot of the mutations could be interpreted as the effects of psychic powers.
deyempe



Joined: Aug 14, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

mr-maverick wrote:
I played my first 40k game yesterday, it was a lot of fun!!!


Good!
Glad you enjoyed, That was the plan Wink

mr-maverick wrote:
I feel that there are some changes that are needed to the Tyranids, to fit the fluff (I am a tyranid fan and fielded a huge army back in the day)

Genestealers:
lose extra arms - yes they do have extra arms, but these arms are claws which would be no good for ball carrying etc and this fluff has already been covered by having the claw skill
need to be ag4 - they had one of the highest initiative scores in the game and were always described as having super human reflexes - due to this change they need to be more expensive by 10k

Lictor:
Needs leap skill to fit the fluff and agility access as standard - I'd suggest making either strength or general access a double roll

Zoanthropes:
Need to lose the claw skill and gain no hands - the newest evolution of zoanthrope is basically a floating head and long slender body, with very small limbs
they also need to gain the bombadier to simulate their psychic attacks


Not bad suggestions at all.

Most of these changes seem reasonable to me... however, I felt Biovores merited bombardier more-so than Zoanthropes did/do. Zoanthropes attack psychically and this is why I gave them Hypno Gaze and Disturbing Presence.

mr-maverick wrote:
The entire team needs mutant access - perhaps change it to doubles across the board as mutations among tyranids are common to see but are also expensive
The full team also needs Nurgle's rot - this would simulate the dead being devoured and churning out more troops - I'd suggest setting it to spit out hormagaunts if possible


Mutation on doubles is fine.

I went the other way with the team; The Tyranids are marked as Undead - and get Hormagaunts.

(Kind of the same thing as you suggested? I am not sure exactly what the difference is between the two ways of getting new positionals but if NR is better fitting than Undead this could be altered - I chose undead simply as it was easier than adding another skill to all the positionals)

mr-maverick wrote:
To simulate the hive mind connection of some of the creatures the Hive Tyrant, Zoanthropes and Broodlord need the leader skill


My way of implementing hive-mind was to not give Hive Tyrant (and Uberfex) Loner. Also, I gave the Synapse Creatures Disturbing Presence to further represent this mind-connection but I feel now this skill doesn't really fit the role ..i'd have liked to have choose something better to represent this - I must have been tired or something because I didn't consider Leader here; I feel Leader would be ok on Brood Lord, Tyrant & Uberfex(maybe) but not Zoanthropes, personally.

I'll be honest I am not up-to-date with current 40k army's so I imagine things have changed a little over the past few years.. however I am open to to suggestion and will make changes that are fitting and merited in fluff. But I cannot allow a starter Tyranid team access to x4 Leader RR's.

mr-maverick wrote:
There is a LOT of regen across most teams which I think is completely un-needed, in the case of the tyranids this is a skill that you would have only seen on the larger creatures so I would set it to the positional creatures only - the rest of the teams need to be looked at


heh..

I think regen across the teams is completely needed. With so many teams starting with often multiple Chainsaws and Bombs and Knifes and Block/Dodge/Frenzy/Leapers, and Claws, and.. list goes on, most teams would need retirement after 1 game, maybe even after 1 half of a game. It would be ridiculous and totally waste of time and effort if there were no regen on the teams, imo.

mr-maverick wrote:
why is there stab on Necron warriors?? have i forgotten something about them? i can't think of any fluff that would give them this...


hrmm.. ok well, look at the end of this Gauss barrel!!

Image

Pretty sure they are capable of stabbing with that!, its not a great excuses to give them stab really I admit but it sticks out so much mate I couldn't ignore it, plus most of the 40k teams have 0-16 stabber positional and it just didn't seem right that such powerful menaces would go without it - they ofc are the most likely race to want to ignore ball all-together and stab everyone dead anyway!, imo.

mr-maverick wrote:
Hope this makes sense guys
please reply with your thoughts....


Really appreciate the feedback/input and I hope I've shed some light on some aspects of my design decisions. I'll not make any changes yet because I'd like to get some more opinions and such first, but everything you have said I have taken on-board, so please continue! Smile
xnoelx



Joined: Jun 05, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 16:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Just one point, which you may be aware of: having 4 players with the Leader skill still only gains you one reroll, not four.

It does make it harder to lose that reroll, as all 4 players with the skill have to be out, but it's not as good as 4 extra rerolls.

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zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 16:52 Reply with quote Back to top

There are a couple of differences between Undead a Nurgle's Rot. First, Undead is a team trait, so a player killed while playing against this team (regardless the cause of death) will be raises, whereas Nurgle's Rot is a player trait, so that only players killed by the hand (or boot, or tentacle, or claw...) of a player with this skill will be raised.

The second difference is that Undead can only raise one player per game, while Nurgle's Rot will raise as many as you kill.

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xnoelx



Joined: Jun 05, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 17:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Also, Undead players are raised during the game, Nurgle after it.

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jdm



Joined: Nov 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 17:24 Reply with quote Back to top

As the necron player in the game against Maverick's nids, I'll offer some opinions on the necron roster.
I should preface this by saying that I know nothing about the 40k universe and the few games I have played were played before necrons existed. So I can only approach it from a bb setting and here's my thoughts:

1. strength creep. Similar to power creep in tabletop. With the way block dice work in bb, bumping the average st to 4 really throws out of whack the amount of dice you're rolling for blocks. I recognise (mainly from Maverick sending me pics of 40k stuff) that these guys are all crazy strong but if your baseline strength isn't going to be 3 (which I feel is what the current rules are designed for) then it will further increase the gap between st4 players and <st4.

2. in a similar vein, blanket stab on the necrons meant it was much wiser to stab any of the stunty tyranids things I was next to, rather than blocking them. I think in 1 LOS deployment, when Maverick put 3 stunties on the line, I deployed 8 warriors on the LOS and they all stabbed.

3. in my team at the moment I have an mng scarab. As they are restricted in number (0-4) I've been given a warrior journeyman, who costs more, to replace him, even though I only have 3 rostered scarabs. Is this ok?

All said, I liked necrons, although my team is super bland as I wanted to start with 3rr and have no personal attachment to any of the other positionals. I'll start to fill it out when I get more games in

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mr-maverick



Joined: Sep 10, 2010

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 19:16 Reply with quote Back to top

xnoelx wrote:
Also, Undead players are raised during the game, Nurgle after it.


I was aiming for the rot because of this reason, the generation of new players would be out of character during the game

_________________
-Alcohol doesn't solve any problems, but if you think again, neither does milk.
-The early bird catches the worm, but its the second mouse that gets the cheese.
mr-maverick



Joined: Sep 10, 2010

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 19:20 Reply with quote Back to top

deyempe wrote:


I think regen across the teams is completely needed. With so many teams starting with often multiple Chainsaws and Bombs and Knifes and Block/Dodge/Frenzy/Leapers, and Claws, and.. list goes on, most teams would need retirement after 1 game, maybe even after 1 half of a game. It would be ridiculous and totally waste of time and effort if there were no regen on the teams, imo.


You'd think that, but if you play any stunty leeg with every team fielding weapons and big guys against guys with stunty traits and low armour and strength its really surprising how tough the guys can be

_________________
-Alcohol doesn't solve any problems, but if you think again, neither does milk.
-The early bird catches the worm, but its the second mouse that gets the cheese.
mr-maverick



Joined: Sep 10, 2010

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 19:26 Reply with quote Back to top

deyempe wrote:

My way of implementing hive-mind was to not give Hive Tyrant (and Uberfex) Loner. Also, I gave the Synapse Creatures Disturbing Presence to further represent this mind-connection but I feel now this skill doesn't really fit the role ..i'd have liked to have choose something better to represent this - I must have been tired or something because I didn't consider Leader here; I feel Leader would be ok on Brood Lord, Tyrant & Uberfex(maybe) but not Zoanthropes, personally.

Uberfex isnt given the trait of synapse creature which is basically the hive mind amplifier, so wouldnt put it on them. Zoanthropes do so that was my thought process.

Also, with the leader RR thing, as previously mentioned it does only gain 1 RR at a max, plus the positionals are really expensive so I cant imagine fielding many of these in a starting team. My starting team was 1 lictor, 1 hive tyrant, 6 stealers and 4 gaunts, only leaving me enough caash for 2x RRs to get a 3rd i would have had to lose either the tyrant or lictor and take another gaunt - bearing in mind the gaunts are weak and have no hands i think this would have been a poor choice

_________________
-Alcohol doesn't solve any problems, but if you think again, neither does milk.
-The early bird catches the worm, but its the second mouse that gets the cheese.
deyempe



Joined: Aug 14, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2016 - 22:21 Reply with quote Back to top

xnoelx wrote:
Just one point, which you may be aware of: having 4 players with the Leader skill still only gains you one reroll, not four.

It does make it harder to lose that reroll, as all 4 players with the skill have to be out, but it's not as good as 4 extra rerolls.


Yep, was aware of this one but had somehow slipped my mind ><

mr-maverick wrote:
xnoelx wrote:
Also, Undead players are raised during the game, Nurgle after it.


I was aiming for the rot because of this reason, the generation of new players would be out of character during the game


Cheers for clearing this up for me guys. Nurgles Rot it is then Smile

mr-maverick wrote:
deyempe wrote:


I think regen across the teams is completely needed. With so many teams starting with often multiple Chainsaws and Bombs and Knifes and Block/Dodge/Frenzy/Leapers, and Claws, and.. list goes on, most teams would need retirement after 1 game, maybe even after 1 half of a game. It would be ridiculous and totally waste of time and effort if there were no regen on the teams, imo.


You'd think that, but if you play any stunty leeg with every team fielding weapons and big guys against guys with stunty traits and low armour and strength its really surprising how tough the guys can be


This is true I suppose, but, there is no penalty for Secret Weapons at all here which (in my view) does alter the posts a little. Blanket Regen is not ideal, Necron were the origijnal team to get it, I think for the other races it was suggested to me originally by someone else (cant remember exactly who or why now), I'm not overly keen on it but I also don't see it as being overly detrimental. Most of the games I have played thus far have been even footed, at least as far as numbers on the pitch go. It would be interesting to see how the teams cope without Regen I admit. Perhaps a closed tourney would shed some light on this one. This particular area will require more thought and attention for sure.

mr-maverick wrote:
deyempe wrote:

My way of implementing hive-mind was to not give Hive Tyrant (and Uberfex) Loner. Also, I gave the Synapse Creatures Disturbing Presence to further represent this mind-connection but I feel now this skill doesn't really fit the role ..i'd have liked to have choose something better to represent this - I must have been tired or something because I didn't consider Leader here; I feel Leader would be ok on Brood Lord, Tyrant & Uberfex(maybe) but not Zoanthropes, personally.

Uberfex isnt given the trait of synapse creature which is basically the hive mind amplifier, so wouldnt put it on them. Zoanthropes do so that was my thought process.

Also, with the leader RR thing, as previously mentioned it does only gain 1 RR at a max, plus the positionals are really expensive so I cant imagine fielding many of these in a starting team. My starting team was 1 lictor, 1 hive tyrant, 6 stealers and 4 gaunts, only leaving me enough caash for 2x RRs to get a 3rd i would have had to lose either the tyrant or lictor and take another gaunt - bearing in mind the gaunts are weak and have no hands i think this would have been a poor choice


Brood Lord, Hive Tyrant and Zoanthropes it is then. Must have got my info mixed up somewhere, thanks again for clarification Smile
mr-maverick



Joined: Sep 10, 2010

Post   Posted: Jul 29, 2016 - 22:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I've just re-read the Nurgle's Rot skill....
Nurgle’s Rot(Extraordinary):
If player with Nurgle’s Rot kills an opponent during a Block, Foul, or
Blitz Action, the opponent becomes a new Rotter. The opponent has to have been removed from his team’s roster at the end of the game, his strength can’t be greater than 4, and he can’t have the
Decay Regeneration or Stunty skills. The new Rotter is added for free, if you have a free slot on the team, though he still counts towards your Team Value.

making it useless in 40k as everyone has regen and or stunty

_________________
-Alcohol doesn't solve any problems, but if you think again, neither does milk.
-The early bird catches the worm, but its the second mouse that gets the cheese.
Adalil



Joined: May 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 04, 2016 - 14:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Hey there! it took me a while to find this.
I've been building a 40k ruleset too. It's not complete (i lack aaall images) but i'm working hard to keep it balanced.

you can check it out here:
https://fumbbl.com/p/ruleset?id=260
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