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buuface



Joined: Apr 23, 2014

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 10:39 Reply with quote Back to top

I have a friend who is a long time and highly skilled BB player.

He joined Fumbbl about a year ago after playing cyanide for a few years but has since switched back to cyanide on the basis of simple rule.

He says that in BB2, the last set of rules includes that you can only have 150-200,000 saved in bank before it starts to add to your TV

He says this overall balances the game better for long-term league play and prevents the bash heavy teams from amassing huge amounts of money and maintaining dominance season after season where agility teams struggle struggle to remain competitive for more than one or two season before crashing due to injuries and lack of funds.

He said that if fumbbl implements, or allows the function to implement this rule, that he will return.

What do people think about this?
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 10:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Its not an official rule so will not happen. Also I think he is wrong personally.

This bank rule has been around for ages BBRC wanted it in CRP JJ vetoed it.

I have played with it and do not like it at all because it just means you dump cash, which is stupid. Cash has very little impact on the game in this edition anyway really. When bash teams lose players they can take an eternity to skill up, when elves lose a player its pretty straight forward skilling them up. Also it hurts the weakest teams most of all like vampires etc...

For me it just a clunky mechanism that leads to unrealistic practises of cash dumping, and doesn't really add anything to the game, personally I am glad JJ vetoed it.


edit: sadly if there are any rule changes that come with the new box set next year this will almost certainly be in there because galak and all his little cronies that kiss his back side love this rule even though they could achieve their same goals in a better way.

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Last edited by Garion on Jul 25, 2016 - 10:47; edited 1 time in total
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 10:46 Reply with quote Back to top

You won't get much support on here for the bank rule (that's what it's called).

Personally I think the worst thing about the game right now is cash hoarding with small rosters. It would go some way to prevent that, but it's a negative rule.

Also if you add the bank, you need to take a new look at Spiralling Expenses and why people hoard cash.

I really wish it wasn't needed but I think it is, but you need to give teams a break too. I mean in a League for example, if you have dead fixtures, having a bank really is crippling and negative.

One division in particular I think would definitely benefit. However the players there generally like the style of play.......so unless it dies, it probably isn't right to fix it.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 10:58 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
why people hoard cash.


to pick up on this line is there any problem with hording cash, does it actually benefit teams in anyway?

The only time I have ever seen it be useful is in majors when people hire wizards from their cash. But invariably this just means both teams have a wizard. But the bank rule doesnt really stop this anyway.

there will not be any correlation between amount of cash and win percentage. This is just something Galak is butt hurt over and has been pushing really hard to get in the game and with some success on cyanide.
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 10:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it's a pretty odd reason to leave fumbbl.

I personaly don't see cash hoarding as a problem, but can agree that the different capability of rosters to do so can be. Elves will hardly ever be able to hoard a substantial amount of cash while undead often have millions.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 11:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
why people hoard cash.


to pick up on this line is there any problem with hording cash, does it actually benefit teams in anyway?


Yes, it's created an extremely artificial gaming environment. The longer we stay with it, the more the established gamers get used to it and see less of a problem.

2 reasons it's a problem is:

A. Avoiding SE (which is extremely artificial).
B. Playing at a certain weight with money to alter the roster how they wish to stay at that weight. This means the team can be extremely successful (bar the ff penalty).

Rather than moving upward as the progression should be and facing harder games.

It's not the main problem with TV, but how money is working with the current ruleset is helping to create an unrealistic environment. I.e. By not trying to create the strongest possible team you can.

Add to the fact that teams are sitting there with several million in the bank they have no interest in spending really is unsightly. Clearly money isn't working correctly if you have teams at 1200TV and 3 million in the bank.......right?
Endzone



Joined: Apr 01, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 11:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I think cash hoarding is more about low attrition teams not having to spend much money and there not being anything very useful to spend money on once you have a team an a few rerolls. I don't see it as a problem. Bring back buying your own stadium!!
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 11:10 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
Garion wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
why people hoard cash.


to pick up on this line is there any problem with hording cash, does it actually benefit teams in anyway?


Yes, it's created an extremely artificial gaming environment. The longer we stay with it, the more the established gamers get used to it and see less of a problem.

2 reasons it's a problem is:

A. Avoiding SE (which is extremely artificial).
B. Playing at a certain weight with money to alter the roster how they wish to stay at that weight. This means the team can be extremely successful (bar the ff penalty).

Rather than moving upward as the progression should be and facing harder games.

It's not the main problem with TV, but how money is working with the current ruleset is helping to create an unrealistic environment. I.e. By not trying to create the strongest possible team you can.

Add to the fact that teams are sitting there with several million in the bank they have no interest in spending really is unsightly. Clearly money isn't working correctly if you have teams at 1200TV and 3 million in the bank.......right?



sure I am not disputing it is silly for teams to have so much money, but forcing people to dump it a lot worse. I dont like the min max sweet spot thing either really but bank rule does nothing to address that either. people can still sit in the sweet spot with their 4 legends and 7 scrubs. the only difference is they have 200k in the bank. and after every game have to throw a load of money in the bin.

petty cash and bank rule is not the issue here really.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 11:11 Reply with quote Back to top

buuface wrote:

He said that if fumbbl implements, or allows the function to implement this rule, that he will return.


I don't think we'll be changing it jut for him. Wink

buuface wrote:
What do people think about this?


In private leagues coaches can implement whatever cash hoarding rules they like.

It sounds to me that your friend is talking nonsense. The way I hear it, the Cyanide public league has bigger and naster bash teams than Fumbbl, due to people conceding whenever they meet a team bigger and nastier than them.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 11:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Endzone wrote:
I think cash hoarding is more about low attrition teams not having to spend much money and there not being anything very useful to spend money on once you have a team an a few rerolls. I don't see it as a problem. Bring back buying your own stadium!!


There's plenty to spend it on, but is it cost effective?

How would the bank rule affect you in Blackbox?

Another question.

How would 50k handicap for every win in your last 5 games (of that team) affect you in Blackbox?
buuface



Joined: Apr 23, 2014

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 11:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion where you say they could achieve their goals in the better way, what do you mean by that?
buuface



Joined: Apr 23, 2014

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 11:18 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

It sounds to me that your friend is talking nonsense. The way I hear it, the Cyanide public league has bigger and naster bash teams than Fumbbl, due to people conceding whenever they meet a team bigger and nastier than them.


He plays in the Orca Cola Cup that's his main league. It's a private league but almost as big as SWL

koadah wrote:

In private leagues admins can implement any cash rules they like


Is that actually true? If i wanted to make this 'bank' rule in my league could i do it - so that TV is automatically raised by having over a certain amount of money?


Last edited by buuface on Jul 25, 2016 - 11:20; edited 1 time in total
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 11:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
Garion wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
why people hoard cash.


to pick up on this line is there any problem with hording cash, does it actually benefit teams in anyway?


Yes, it's created an extremely artificial gaming environment. The longer we stay with it, the more the established gamers get used to it and see less of a problem.

2 reasons it's a problem is:

A. Avoiding SE (which is extremely artificial).
B. Playing at a certain weight with money to alter the roster how they wish to stay at that weight. This means the team can be extremely successful (bar the ff penalty).

Rather than moving upward as the progression should be and facing harder games.

It's not the main problem with TV, but how money is working with the current ruleset is helping to create an unrealistic environment. I.e. By not trying to create the strongest possible team you can.

Add to the fact that teams are sitting there with several million in the bank they have no interest in spending really is unsightly. Clearly money isn't working correctly if you have teams at 1200TV and 3 million in the bank.......right?



sure I am not disputing it is silly for teams to have so much money, but forcing people to dump it a lot worse. I dont like the min max sweet spot thing either really but bank rule does nothing to address that either. people can still sit in the sweet spot with their 4 legends and 7 scrubs. the only difference is they have 200k in the bank. and after every game have to throw a load of money in the bin.

petty cash and bank rule is not the issue here really.


I see it a bit like aging. It's really negative, however it'd help in certain situations.

For example players with 9 players and 2 JMs. If they had to dump cash, they'd might as well buy a player. Also it would look better on paper.

Possibly a % bank would be better. Say TV x 1.5. So a new team would get 150k and a 200TV team would get 300k. That feels better and gives a little incentive to increase.

I do agree though, that the bank doesn't solve much. In a League it causes definite problems. You need to try and save money during dead matches, you really do.

TV handicapping and match making is the main problem. I really do want to see cash hoarding with small teams eradicated. So if anything makes even a little difference I'm for it.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 11:29 Reply with quote Back to top

buuface wrote:
koadah wrote:

It sounds to me that your friend is talking nonsense. The way I hear it, the Cyanide public league has bigger and naster bash teams than Fumbbl, due to people conceding whenever they meet a team bigger and nastier than them.


He plays in the Orca Cola Cup that's his main league. It's a private league but almost as big as SWL

koadah wrote:

In private leagues admins can implement any cash rules they like


Is that actually true? If i wanted to make this 'bank' rule in my league could i do it - so that TV is automatically raised by having over a certain amount of money?


OK, that is true. I would simply say that teams cannot hold more than a certain amount.

Do Cyanide commishes have the option to NOT implement the bank rule?

If we're talking about options we already have quite a few + custom rosters. But yeah, I'd take a few more.

I don't need the bank but options are good. Smile

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 25, 2016 - 11:35 Reply with quote Back to top

I think if the bigger team in any matchup had to spend excess cash on extra inducements or give away the same extra inducements anyway, that'd be good because we'd see more inducements in general play.

You could still horde a bit of cash, especially if you play up TV most of the time because you're a bit beaten up in a league, or if it was for a tournament or league finals run or something, you just pay a price. And yeh, coaches could dump cash to avoid giving and getting extra inducements, but that seems fine if that's what they prefer.

Then spiralling expenses can work like it's supposed to on the big bash teams, force them into occasional rebuild periods like everyone else (in long-lived teams).

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