Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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 Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 06:50 |
 
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But min/max isn't a problem in Box any more...  |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 12:27 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | But min/max isn't a problem in Box any more... |
Alright, I've started a poll here to try to settle this question.
If the majority really don't think there is an issue, then we can move on and accept that one of the assumptions this thread is based on is unfounded. After all, the first step in solving a problem is to determine whether or not there really is a problem .. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Sep 07, 2016 - 15:56 |
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Lets just say for the discussion that TS was brought back, this is how it should work, IMO.
TS under LRB4 was the value used to determine the match up in the box and the TR value was used to determine the handicaps. I always thought that was messed up because you had some teams who would have a inflated TS compared to their TR, mainly the undead teams.
SO
Under CRP the match up should be based on the TV and TS would determine the inducements. That way a team with a high TS, mainly based on taking skills that have been flagged as no fun, would then have to give up inducement cash to the lesser TS team who is playing nice and friendly.
Now, the big picture of TV. TV is not broke on FUMBBL. How can it be? It only effects the Box. TV means nothing in Ranked, League, Stunty, Faction, Fluffy Rainbow and Test DIVS. TV in the box is further refined by the parameters of box activation. So in reality, a modified TS is all ready running inside the box.
It seems the real issue is that teams at high TV who are roughly equal in TV and one team has "bad" skill combos that effect pixel health and the other team is a nice and friendly group of chaps who just want a fun game. The fun loving chaps are in for a beating with no in game "help" to "give them an edge".
That is why I have been yelling from my soap box to fix the issues with Gold and how gold has NO VALUE under CRP. You allow teams to use gold and not give an even exchange the fun loving chaps can transfer some cash for babes/apoths and so forth.
I could go on about the Gold Issue under CRP but you can find my post on this subject in the general chat if interested. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %07, %2016 - %16:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Sep 07, 2016 - 16:01 |
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Once upon a time, there was a guy who had problems predicting his new TS after he fired a niggled player.
That guy was just a researcher who did simulation studies.
The end. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Sep 07, 2016 - 16:05 |
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I do find it amusing that if you go back in time on the forums how this thread is basically the same thread that was discussed numerous times all ready.
History lesson on TS/Box and scheduler
That lesson was from page 11 on the Box forum. Just look at the discussion in the Box section on page #10 and #11 and you will see that the same "issues" under LRB4 and the Box are the same issues of the Box under CRP. |
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almic85
Joined: May 25, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 16:40 |
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| PainState wrote: | Now, the big picture of TV. TV is not broke on FUMBBL. How can it be? It only effects the Box. TV means nothing in Ranked, League, Stunty, Faction, Fluffy Rainbow and Test DIVS. TV in the box is further refined by the parameters of box activation. So in reality, a modified TS is all ready running inside the box.
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I am not sure what you mean with the above comment. Is this meant to only apply if "TS" was used for inducements in lieu of the current TV formula?
Currently TV is used in every division for the point of selecting match ups and for inducement calculations.
In ranked it is against site rules to continually play up or down TV consistently in ranked.
In league it was/is used to set both hard and soft caps for conference levels in a number of leagues.
I will repeat one of my bugbears that has come up in this thread repeatedly. TV/TS is NOT blackbox specific. It is only one portion of any potential blackbox scheduling algorithm.
If you really wanted to fix just blackbox then it would be easier to suggest changes to the scheduling algorithm to reduce the chance of a match based on the number of players, or the skill distribution on players, or even for particular skill stacks being present in the team. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 16:43 |
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If anyone wants to cite a specific comment, just click on the icon at the left of "Posted" ( it looks like a white sheet of paper) and copy the URL.
(With my infinite gratitude to AD.)
Like this.
Your challenge, were you to accept it, would be to change TS so that "this" kind of pairing gets fairier for everyone.
Did I wrote fairier? |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 16:53 |
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I hate to say it but... the main aspect in regard to balanced games would be amount of games vs quality of games.
You can hardly say the scheduler is the problem when 90% of the time you just get scheduled into an unfavorable match because there aren't any other matchups.
Now there is a very great number of people that has been pushing to make it easier and easier to just schedule whatever the hell is available. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Sep 07, 2016 - 17:29 |
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| almic85 wrote: |
Currently TV is used in every division for the point of selecting match ups and for inducement calculations.
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TV is used in every Div for inducements.
TV is not used in every Div for match ups.
TV is not used in league to determine match ups. Now most leagues do take this in consideration when forming up a new tournament or league group BUT once the start tournament button is hit, TV has no meaning on match ups any more.
TV is used as a guide in Ranked/Stunty But you still have the freedom of choice on which match ups you will take or offer. TV in ranked if you are the high TV team, in terms of matches offered, is then used as a guide on how much inducement money are you willing to give up for a match. Example: My Buccaneers in Ranked are over 2500 TV. So, the vast majority of my matches I offer Iam giving up usually 300-500 TV in inducement cash.
Black Box is the only Div that uses TV to actually calculate who you will play against after it gets put into the scheduler with its other factors taken into account. BUT TV is the driving mechanic used to calculate the match up.
The Fluffy Rainbow, I will be honest, I have no clue how they determine match ups but it is not TV, Iam confident to say that.
lastly TV is not used in Tournaments in Box/Ranked. Some tournaments do have TV or TW min or max values but that is because the tournament is set up for a specific range of teams. Once the tournament starts, TV goes by the wayside. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %07, %2016 - %17:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 17:37 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | I hate to say it but... the main aspect in regard to balanced games would be amount of games vs quality of games.
You can hardly say the scheduler is the problem when 90% of the time you just get scheduled into an unfavorable match because there aren't any other matchups.
Now there is a very great number of people that has been pushing to make it easier and easier to just schedule whatever the hell is available. |
I have to say the best "test" for Black Box when it comes to the match ups it spits out would be if we could have one week where 50-100 coaches are putting teams in the scheduler on most activation's. But alas that is a pipe dream just because FUMBBL does not have the # of users online looking for a match in Box at any given time of day to achieve this.
Every once in a blue moon you will see a Box activation with 6 matches going off. Usually it is 2-4 and that is it. The pool of coaches who play Box is so small in the big picture that no matter what parameters you put on the scheduler you are still going to have a lot of miss matches and so forth. Only by having a large "pool" of coaches activating at one time will the scheduler perform up to par, I hope. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 17:57 |
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Sometimes, running thousand men-hours experiments can save one hour at the library |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 18:09 |
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| almic85 wrote: |
If you really wanted to fix just blackbox then it would be easier to suggest changes to the scheduling algorithm to reduce the chance of a match based on the number of players, or the skill distribution on players, or even for particular skill stacks being present in the team. |
That is the entire point of talking about bringing back a CRP version of TS for the Black Box.
You remove TV from the scheduler and replace it with TS. Use TV as the value to determine Inducements. This would in theory make match ups more fair based on the value of TS and how it was structured. In theory a better representation of a Teams Strength based on skills and so forth.
The problem with this solution is you will have teams with high TS and TV that could be 200-300 lower, thus, they get an advantage with inducements. (the old LRB issue)
OR
You keep the scheduler as is and use the TS as the value used to calculate Inducement money. Thus teams that have elevated TS due to skills/mutations/stacks have to pay a TS Tax.
Now we have matches determined by TV, just like right now But teams with elevated TS over their TV will most likely be giving up, big to huge inducement money to the lower TS team. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %07, %2016 - %18:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Sep 07, 2016 - 18:12 |
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| thoralf wrote: | | Sometimes, running thousand men-hours experiments can save one hour at the library |
Well, that is true but you lose the enjoyment of playing Blood Bowl if you just run some glorified algorithm. Plus, that just leads to another 20+ page thread talking about the pros and cons of algorithm's, which is boring as hell.
** Foot Note **
You also lose interest from around 99% of the readers on the forums because they remember the days they had to take statistics in college and that drove them insane. Why bring back the memories of the insanity? why? |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Sep 07, 2016 - 18:25 |
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My final thought on this.
There is one huge issue with TS.
Chister can change up the scheduler and re introduce a form of TS into it. The problem is inducements will always be calculated using TV because that is hard coded into the system of Fantasy Football.
So, even if you agree with me that TS should be used to calculate the inducement value for the match it can only get done by adding it into the clients code. Which all of us by now should know that is a fantasy dream world.
that is it. Iam now off to determine why islands have a Rainbow advantage over deserts. |
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almic85
Joined: May 25, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 18:35 |
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Hi Painstate, I understand that box is the only division that hard codes who you play based on TV and that it will be heavily affected by any change to TV calculation, but do you honestly not consider TV at all when accepting a game in ranked division? If it is something you refer to, even briefly, to select an opponent then it is relevant to ranked.
Similarly if it is used to set a starting min/max TV for a tournament it is still being actively used in that division for the purpose of creating a competition. It can also be used to organise seeding in tournaments if the commissioner wants to.
I am just making the point (which you are more than aware of by your post) that TV does affect more than just black box scheduling.
If the thread was titled problems with the box scheduling algorithm and sitting in the black box forum (or even better a thread necro of any of those old threads) I wouldn't keep harping on that TV applies to the rest of us that don't play black box.
For the sake of talking about application of TV/TS to the box scheduler I would think it would personally be loath to change the core rules around TV being used for inducements as the scheduling algorithm should already take the TV gap into account when it looks at the delta TV between the two potential teams when deciding on fairness.
If you are going to go down a modified TS route, I personally would keep TV as the core rule for working out inducements, and again trust to the match making algorithm to pick the fairest match ups based on TS. If inducements caused by the TV difference are a real issue then add another factor into the algorithm to increase TS for the lower team by 1/3 of the TV difference to make up for the inducements. |
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