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SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 01:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I am happy to announce that OBC Sport SR Rankings is now in beta stage which means its existence is revealed to the public from now.

This is the new rankings which takes place of the one which is maintained manually by sonrises.
Sonrises made a great job but got tired over time.
He asked me in about one and a half years ago whether we could automate the rankings somehow.
In the meantime I got a child born (and soon another) but slow but sure we came to this moment.
We both hope that you fellow coaches will like it as much as we do!

Note that the results are not identical with the former rankings because the new one has a weekly rolling system with full ATP points table.

Without writing too much, let me recommend you to bookmark our page. Please follow these steps.

Happy birthday FUMBBL!

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Last edited by SzieberthAdam on May 09, 2017 - 16:20; edited 10 times in total
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 03:26 Reply with quote Back to top

This is a truly fun addition, and all sorts of pretty numbers and tables can be generated. Im having fun digging around.

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I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 12:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Awesome stuff, I've spent most of my morning browsing this (don't tell my boss)! Very Happy [The only thing I really don't understand is what the "Wasted Points" are. I've read the part about available slots but I really don't get it. Would you mind trying to explain it in a different way?] Edit: Oh forget it, found the relevant part now, it's all clear. Smile
SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 12:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Simply saying, the system picks your best 18 coach results and the rest got wasted. Same for teams and 12 slots.

There are reserved slots though which could be filled with points from specific tournaments only.

One slot is reserved for FC.
One for XFL / XFL Masters.
6 slots are reserved for Non-FC, Non-XFL Masters majors for coaches.
3 slots are reserved for Non-FC, Non-XFL Masters majors for teams.

So if you only play non-XFL minors, your ranking points will be the sum of your 10 best results only as a coach.

EDIT: Thinking it over again, it would be better to say that coach rankins is the sum of FC, best XFL, best 6 Non-FC, Non-XFL Masters majors, and best 10 of the remaining results.

Same for team rankings: FC, XFL, best 3 regular majors, best 7 of the remaining.

Documentation will be clarified soon. Thanks for the question!

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 12:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah I got it now, it's like the "10 best Minor results" in the old rankings, the slot thing confused me but I shouldn't have skipped the paragraph that started with "in simplified words", which could have been a cue. Laughing Sorry about that and thanks for explaining it again, it all makes sense now! Very Happy
spelledaren



Joined: Mar 06, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 12:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Wow. Just...great.

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easilyamused



Joined: Jun 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 12:56
FUMBBL Staff
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I'm going to move this to the tournament section and sticky it.

Awesome work!!!

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SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 14:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks guys!

@Verminardo: I have clarified and highlighted that part of the rulebook:

https://fumbblplus.github.io/sr/rulebook/#slot-allocation

A little thought about the Team Rankings. The system encourages taking the same team to tournaments. Three reserved slots for majors means it is advised to take the same box team to all Blackbox majors. Every team which was not taken to FC is potencially behind those which were there. But a coach can only take one to FC. Missing XFL is a clear disadvantage.

This is intentional. Sometimes coaches should feel the tradeoff by taking their best shape team and go for Coach Rankings or take the same team as before and go for Team Rankings.

Currently only a few teams have wasted points, so there are a lot more potentially obtainable points for most of them. Rosterial Team Rankings are almost free to take for those who start taking their single team to many tournaments. This could result more famous teams in the tournament scene. This could result more heterogenous tournaments (in rosters) and I believe - more fun for all.

Still for tier 2-3 rosters, XFL winner gets a huge advantage, but I see nothing wrong in that.

Current top Coach is PC without winning a major. That could be surprising for the first look, but follow me.

You can go to the Points page, paste "=PurpleChest" to the coach filter and set Coach slot group to "Not W" to verify his points. You can see that he has a decent major result and he won 5 bigger minors and was finalist in a many other minors too. That was enough. His best wasted point is 150.

You can compare that to Mateuszzzzzz who is the XFL MASTERS winner. You can see that how a weaker minor performance caused him to be end up in the second place. He won smaller minors than PC which yielded less points for him. His last three best points were all below 150.

You can repeat that with any other major winner too, including anisdrin who was number one until December.

Even if winning a major yields 3-4 times the points as a good minor, one can hardly be the top coach without good minor performance. Moreover, geggster is a top 25 coach for a long time without participating in major tournaments at all.

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 14:22 Reply with quote Back to top

It does seem to follow a different logic than the TOP rankings though, doesn't it? Smacks and Brawls are much better for points now. Even a first round loss in a Smack or Brawl is 30 points just for showing up, which is more than you got for winning first round and losing second round in the Black Cup for example (22 points). I assume there is some sort of ATP logic behind this but at first glance it seems upside down.
SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 15:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes the system encourages people to apply tournaments. More participant yield more reward but point for the mere application will be lower.

The current points table is not perfect and final. We have a year to make it better and I will expect your suggestions.

I tried to adapt ATP rules despite our tournaments are less standard in number of applicants, format, and at all.

Taking the normal bracket size points (7-8, 13-16; 25-32; 49-64;..), their reward increases with about 10/7 which is similar to the the ATP point table. E.g. 2000 [reward for 385-512] * 0.7 = 1400 [reward for 193-256] and 175 [Minor/7-8] = 250 * 0.7 [Minor/13-16]

The overfillered tournaments' reward is between the two ranges in about 30% over the lower value. E.g. 1600 ~=~ 1400 + (2000-1400) * 0.3.

In the ATP points table, the default multiplier of points is 2 but for the last two rounds it is 1.67, e.g. PointsW(inner) = 1.67 * PointsF(inalist) and PointsF = 1.67 * PointsSF.

The smallest ATP tournament is 32. We have brawls with 8 teams in size. Hard to get towards zero fast enough in so few steps with a standard ratio.

What helped was the initial points.
I felt like a good idea to add an incentive for joining to small tournaments as well. With the possibility of more people will target Team Rankings, I speculated that it could result a higher tournament activity.

With losing in 10 brawls and doing nothing else currently you would end up around 150th. By winning FC alone, Nicodaz is at 23th.

And yes, majors yield smaller points first but a lot more later. And they have reserved slots so taking part in them is an only gain situation.

Maybe it was not a good idea to increase Initial points to 30 for a level 1 tournament.

Currently, for Qualifiers, 1.67 is only between winner and finalist.
Maybe that will be the solution for Minors too at the end.
Maybe we should decrease points more between minors by their size, so we would end up at lets say 140 points for a 7-8 Minor. We can not go below 125 because that is the round 3 win reward of Minor/25-32 and thus a lower bound.

I can not be sure and I do not want to be, and I really want more opinions regarding the points table in the future.

The most important thing to do in this year is to figure out the final points table.

So, again, thanks for the input.

EDIT: Fixed how deep we can go with Minor/7-8 reward

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
thebursar



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 15:40 Reply with quote Back to top

What a superb initiative and pile of work. Kudos to both of you!

One question about the points table. Is it necessary to make a provison for RRR Anniversary tournaments or are those covered by your table in the row for Minors with 25 to 32 teams (with the XFL Amazon as example)?

And another question about the site. Most pages don't work for me (no drop down menus etc.), but as i am using IE on this computer i assume that is the problem.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 16:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for your reply Adam! Clearly you have put much more thought into it than me, I just thought that at first glance 30 seemed too high there. I'll think about it some more to come up with a suggestion. Smile
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 16:10 Reply with quote Back to top

I prefer sonrises' way of calculating things. Winning a major is hard and should yield much more points compared to winning a minor. Winning a minor is very easy and you also have an unlimited number of attempts/year to do so.

If my goal is winning a major 2017 I would probably fail it, if my goal is winning 5 minors I would reach it very easily.
easilyamused



Joined: Jun 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 16:27
FUMBBL Staff
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Tricktickler wrote:
I prefer sonrises' way of calculating things. Winning a major is hard and should yield much more points compared to winning minors. Winning a minor is very easy and you also have an unlimited number of attempts/year to do so.

If my goal is winning a major 2017 I would probably fail it, if my goal is winning 5 minors I would reach it very easily.


Depends on how you view tournaments.

Do you view smacks/brawls as minors?

Currently there are only 12 Minors per year, 6 each for B & R.

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Jim_Fear



Joined: May 02, 2014

Post   Posted: Jan 03, 2017 - 16:45 Reply with quote Back to top

easilyamused wrote:
Tricktickler wrote:
I prefer sonrises' way of calculating things. Winning a major is hard and should yield much more points compared to winning minors. Winning a minor is very easy and you also have an unlimited number of attempts/year to do so.

If my goal is winning a major 2017 I would probably fail it, if my goal is winning 5 minors I would reach it very easily.


Depends on how you view tournaments.

Do you view smacks/brawls as minors?

Currently there are only 12 Minors per year, 6 each for B & R.



Tricktickler, didn't I just beat you in a Smack Brawl? Perhaps winning 5 minors is not so easy.

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