Antithesisoftime
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
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 Posted:
Mar 15, 2017 - 04:22 |
 
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Changing Kangors' quantity from 0-4 to 0-6 might help the roster. |
Maybe, but you still have the issue of not being able to really afford them early on. They're also not that great, and in all honesty, I'd rather have more drop bears than kangors. I can see using one, as they are now, maybe two on a developed team, but then only as a semi-mobile guard, or perhaps a ball carrier if they manage a double for Dodge. Purely for hitting things, the drop bears claws will tend to be more effective than a kangor with MB, at least once you get to AV8 or higher, and let's face it, there is a LOT of AV8+.
What has killed me more with Lumbria, is being heavily outnumbered because I have no bench. Yeah, I could probably start with a larger bench, but then I'd be running without RRs, and frankly, that leaves the issue untouched. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 15, 2017 - 04:42 |
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Many teams in BB can't afford to buy all the players at start.
AV 8 ST 3 players with G,S access are not bad on a team with many Stunty players.
Vs AV 8 Mighty Blow is better than Claw to cause a casualty/ko, Claw is better vs AV 9 or higher (without taking into account that the Drop Bears have ST 2 and no G access).
You can get a bench over time. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %15, %2017 - %04:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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Dach
Joined: Dec 25, 2015
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Mar 15, 2017 - 04:50 |
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I just stated what I would do, if you disagree that's fine, just ignore that part of my feedback.
I still want to give you my thought on each roster, haven't found time to do the rest so far though. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 15, 2017 - 20:15 |
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Will the Weeping Dagger skill be added to Clan Eshin Gutter Runners?
I think it should for consistency. |
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Zlefin
Joined: Apr 14, 2005
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Apr 06, 2017 - 22:25 |
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I'd like to be removed from the message list for secret league. While I play some, I don't like getting the message and communication chains through the message system about stuff happening and events, cuz i'm not interested in them and it's more stuff for me to delete.
I can't see who the sender is specifically (so can't pm them directly), and see no clear way to unsubscribe from getting messages about SL stuff, so I'm posting here. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 06, 2017 - 22:30 |
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| Zlefin wrote: | I'd like to be removed from the message list for secret league. While I play some, I don't like getting the message and communication chains through the message system about stuff happening and events, cuz i'm not interested in them and it's more stuff for me to delete.
I can't see who the sender is specifically (so can't pm them directly), and see no clear way to unsubscribe from getting messages about SL stuff, so I'm posting here. |
You need to remove your teams from the Secret League Open group.
This will not prevent your team from beng able to play in tournaments or playing vs other SLO teams. |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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Guardikai
Joined: Jun 23, 2009
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Apr 12, 2017 - 14:53 |
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Really interesting and engaging thread. Burnalot just pointed me here.
I've only played a few secret league teams so far, but I've enjoyed it a lot. I do have some suggestions from that. Before I begin I will point out that even though you have win/loss data, sometimes for quite a number of matches, many of these are from good and experienced players (who have played 100s if not 1000s of games on FUMBBL), which can shift things and make it harder to identify actual issues.
I also hope you're addressing the fluff of the teams alongside balance, costing and enjoyment issues.
So, Savage Orcs:
Fluff - Spot on!
Fun - Yes, their concept is fun and when it can be executed they are.
Issues? - Definitely. AV7 is dangerous, but it also goes against fluff. It represents toughness as much as it represents armour. Orc armour isn't exactly as body covering and effective as human or elven plate. I think some players, with suitable price increases or loss of thick skull, should be AV8. This is a team that wants to bash, but only the blitzers having block and everyone having frenzy can quickly lead to problems even with 3-4 RRs... which is generally very hard to start with if you want to fill out on positionals or have a big guy... or apothecary. They feel like elves in the sense if you lose positionals the team very quickly becomes ineffective or hard/impossible to replace. It's for these reasons I agree with this:
| MattDakka wrote: |
About Savage Orcs:
AV 7 is bad, even with Thick Skull, and unfluffy. An unarmoured Orc has AV 8, not 7.
I suggest to increase their AV to 8 and remove Thick Skull to keep a reasonable balance.
S access should be removed from Linemen, Orc linemen are not as strong as Orc positionals. |
Your average savage orc lacking the musculature of "normal" orcs and instead making up for it with frenzy is thematic. Besides, with 8 positionals with S access it's not harming them much. As a compromise I think AV 8 on blockers and perhaps blitzers would be good. Any chance of reviewing the team and fine tuning this? AV 8 blockers and AV8 blitzers with no thick skull and AV7 line men with thick skull might be nice. Perhaps your average orc isn't as tough as their leaders and big boyz, but is used to getting beaten up or getting in trouble and knows beter how to take a licking and get right back up?
| MachJacob wrote: | My biggest personal gripes on the matter of the Secret League are to do with mainly Northern Nippon and Half-Orcs. With the former, I feel the Oni is overstatted. Comparing it with a Minotaur, it gains Juggernaut, Thick Skull, Regeneration, +AV and +MA for 30k. Sure they lose a point of AG, but since when has AG been important on a non-Ogre Big Guy, and losing the M access on normals means almost nothing since it starts with Claw anyway, still getting Claw-Mighty Blow at 6SPP. Also including the fact that the team has four Human Blitzers and two almost-Black Orc Blockers, it certainly feels to me like the team's power level is above what it should be, especially when compared with some of the worse SL teams. What I feel is necessary is an Oni nerf, either bringing stats and skills down in line with its cost or increasing the price significantly. Three skills (one being Regeneration) and two stat increases for that price increase are a little absurd,
Onto Half-Orcs, it's like they're designed purely to be a counter team intent on ruining the fun of agile or stunty teams. It's like the problem a lot of people have with Dwarfs, only they're MA6, have four ST4 players, and even more Tackle. Their "weakness" of AG2 isn't even that significant because the Blitzers start with MA7 and Sure Hands. For a start, the only two players in CRP that get MA7 and Sure Hands are both Skaven Throwers, who not only are AV7 but also designed to be faster than the average (In SL, both Hobgoblin Runners and Skryre Jezzails also get this, the former would be useless without, and the latter is still Skaven. But they're still both AV7). Staying on Blitzers, since they start with both Block and Tackle, they get Mighty Blow at 6SPP and suddenly any AV7 team just dies inside. At 16SPP you can have four TPOMBers if you want, and you can't use the excuse of "these killers are meant to level slowly" because they have Sure Hands and are clearly meant to score. The Blockers, when compared to the Black Orc Blockers, trade a point of AV for MA, but then they gain Tackle for free. Then the Linemen get Blockle at 6SPP without the drawback that Norse do of AV7. Put all these complaints together with the fact that Greenskins reproduce asexually, and thus in the fluff Half-Orcs cannot exist, it makes you wonder what purpose they serve. What I would do personally is remove the team completely, but since I feel a lot of people wouldn't like that, the alternative would be a small rework of the team. The rationale for the AG2, "The race had a lower Passing ability than either of its parent races and had no position on the team for Throwers or Catchers." is already fulfilled since they have no Thrower or Catcher positional. And as it stands, they're still Orcs, so they should not have any MA7. They maintain their prices while still having MA6 MA8 by losing their AG, so give the Linemen and maybe Blitzers AG3 back but take away a point of MA from the entire roster (except the Ogre). Move Sure Hands over to the Kickers and take away their Tackle and reduce the price of the Blitzers. While the oppressive Tackle-spam is still there, it's easier to punish the MA5.
Other teams I have smaller issues with would be Clan Eshin (Just a 10k price drop on the Assassins, bringing them in line with Pro Elf Catchers. Or maybe give them Dodge or something so they're less overshadowed by the Gutter Runners), Lahmian (Linemen are too expensive, give them back Thralls), Estalia (Not sure when the solution is, but I don't like AG4 Humans or ST4 Humans, combined with the fact that you shouldn't have ST4 and AG4 on the same team), and probably other small things that I can't think of right now. |
+1 to everything here. The small changes are especially good suggestions.
| AutoAxpert wrote: | The worst problem is with the two Nippon rosters.
I think Nippon is clearly overpowered even compared to normal rosters, and I'm kinda surprised nobody has pointed that out yet. They start with almost everything they need and they just keep getting better as time goes by. Agility? The ninja starts with dodge and AG 4, and block is on a normal roll. Removal? They have 0-2 claw players and up to 4 guys that get MB on a normal roll. Attrition? They have AV8 across the board, aside from the ninjas (who start with dodge and are therefore difficult to bring down) and the monks (who still have agility with normal rolls). Core skills? They only lack Sure Hands, but tha Ninjas are AG4 so that's generally a moot point. Plus, they are rather cheap. Basically you start better than a human team, which is great at the start, and just remain better the whole way. The only thing they lack is strength, but even then with that much removal and claw that's not much of a problem. Basically you have a roster that starts better than the others, is more versatile and has the resilience to get better with time.
Northern Nippon is also a bit too much powerful, but no as much of an issue. The fact is, Northern Nippon is much more reliant on the blocking game while lacking the run & gun options Nippon has. Furthermore, much of it comes from a big guy, which makes it much less reliable than a normal player. Plus, re-rolls are 70k, and for a team that starts with no Sure Hands nor AG4, plus a big guy, that is kind of a big deal. They're still a really strong, just not as overpowered as their southern cousins.
And yes, the Oni is grossly overstatted - just compare him to the Yheetee: Disturbing Presence vs. Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration, Thick Skull, +MA and +AV AND Mutation access for a mere 40k?
The Oni should cost 20k more or have lower stats, as Regeneration is no ordinary skill. Also I would make the Ashigaru AV7, as it makes sense from a fluff-historic standpoint and it would make the roster much less resilient and reliable (of course for a 10k discount). |
Another +1
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Brets
I've been reading up on Bretonnians a lot and spoken to those who have used them or played against them, or both.
I usually like teams having more choices of player and positional, but I actually adore the limitedness of the Bretonnian team. It's very set in its ways yet still effective; I think that's wonderful fluff and design.
All that said, looking at their roster history I notice a few points:
Peasants and yeomen haven't changed. People seem happy with them. This is wonderful. No changes here 
Knights - I've seen different lineups for these:
MV 8 GS access
MV 7 GAP access
Block and dauntless only, or block, dauntless and catch
I think the current 7 3 3 8 statline is the best. It doesn't quite make sense for these guys in heavy armour to be galloping across the field much faster than that, but peak athletes used to playing and exceling in the game should be able to be fast even with armour on.
I also like dauntless for representing their chivalry, virtue and tenacity, along with of course block.
However, I majority question catch as a skill for bretonnian blitzers. It's not useful, it's against the fluff and it nudges the team into a direction it's not intended for or good at. Let me explain further; catch works on teams with a passer, agility 4, that are said to be a passing team or that have big hands or some other mutation or racial trait that means it makes sense for them to be better at catching a ball. Bretonnians have none of these features. If anything in fluff their knights disdain ranged combat and should dislike throwing the ball around or between each other. They're not elves; they're skilled professional ball carriers and blitzers.
I'd therefore like to suggest replacing catch with sure hands.
Catch makes the team want to build a dedicated passer to give opportunities to use catch. This is a mistake. It will usually mean a peasant needs to do it, which is against the theme and identity of the team (the knights do the ball handling and peasants support), as well as against the fluff of no ranged combat. Furthermore they're just not good at it even if you build this way; no reliable way to dodge out of trouble to catch, no nerves of steel, no agility or passing access, agility 3, etc.
On the other hand sure hands is fitting for fluff and theme. It would mean the knights really do become your ball carriers; they're better at picking up the ball and preventing the opposition from taking the ball from them (due to not dropping the ball from a strip hands player). It nudges the knights in the right direction. Usually this is a skill one or two knights will develop asap while catch is either redundant or leads you in an odd direction for the team. I would argue 4 knights with sure hands is redundant still, yes, but so is 4x catch. Neither will see use across the board. It's an extra skill with very limited use so why not sure hands instead if it better fits the identity and fluff of the team? It will only crop up a handful (no pun intended!) of times in a game, but it'll be more rewarding for the team and truly make the knights absolutely the heart of the team.
With sure hands the knights will have other small niche gains too, such as being able to knock over an enemy ball carrier or get to where the ball is and have a better chance at picking the ball up in tacklezones due to the reroll. You also can rely on other knights, even new replacement ones, to be your ball handlers at any time during the match with pretty equal effectiveness.
As it would be more useful to them it could mean the cost of knights is increased by 10k, though I'd suggest the other limitations of the team mean this could be a straight skill swap. Certainly it'd be healthy for the team.
Final please: Bretonnians don't want to pass. They're not amazons, a normal human team or a basic orc team, and it's not in the fluff for them or in keeping with the team's intended approach. Don't keep them with catch as a skill, please.
| Garion wrote: |
One thing I would say to everyone is - consider how a team is performing before suggesting wholesale changes. We have stats with win ratios and so on, so when we get feedback saying roster X is broken yet they have a win percentage of 45% it's likely just your perception that's a bit off.
Anyway keep it up, for the most part the feedback has been constructive. |
Good to have you back and watching things :3 well done with the project. I do advise looking at overall data carefully for the reasons above, but also that CIBBL and those in secret league seem to be neglecting the faster, more agile teams that some SL teams, that are performing poorly, might be better against. In CIBBL nobody is playing:
- Cult of Khaine
- Dark Elf
- High Elf
- Pro Elf
- Witch Elf
- Skaven
- Clan Mors
- Clan Moulder
- Clan Pestilens
- Clan Skryre
- Amazon
- Lizardmen (considering the skink aspect of the team)
- Pygmy
- Slann
Many of the teams are the bashier lot and they're therefore playing against other bashier teams. Those with the best bash, tenacity or sustainability (regen) are therefore often seen to be doing well. Those actually winning many games across the divisions, from what I can tell, have some ball handling or movement that is good (such as Nippon), but that wouldn't be as good if all the elf and skaven teams were also in competition.
Also again worth stressing that these games are low TV from the data, for the most part. I think some of the games in the next few seasons of CIBBL will be more telling as developed SL teams play against one another, but again we do lack the more elfball type teams generally speaking. Only wood elves are active and they've had a very, very bad start (losing 5 players in 4 games). See here. |
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ThierryM
Joined: Mar 27, 2015
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Apr 12, 2017 - 15:41 |
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Very interesting post Guardikai but one thing is to be remembered.
Not all the teams are born the same (and equal !) and also, evolve the same.
The curve is different from one team to the other, in SL like in the others environements (LRB, Stunty Leeg, ...).
Some team really shine at 1000 TV, others at 1500, others at 2000 and they feel overpowered at those levels that I call their "point of balance".
Skill choice and builds can sometimes level those things a bit. As a personnal example, I can tell you that the point of balance of my full skeleton Khemri team is around 1450 tv. And it took me about 150 - 200 games with it to "feel" the balancing point.
All this to say that changes shall be weighted in the long run because what may look like something minor can get huge when the team will have grown a bit. |
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Calthor
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
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Apr 12, 2017 - 16:02 |
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It should be noted that we've pretty much decided on all changes at this point. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 12, 2017 - 18:01 |
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a agree ashigaru should be av7 really, i'm not sure why they werent always to be honest. I suspect this was just a typo on my side that never got picked up
though i do worry it would hurt northern nippon too much |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 12, 2017 - 18:15 |
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| Garion wrote: | a agree ashigaru should be av7 really, i'm not sure why they werent always to be honest. I suspect this was just a typo on my side that never got picked up
though i do worry it would hurt northern nippon too much |
How come?
Northern Nippon could field 6 players with AV 8 and 1 with AV 9, only 4 Ashigaru would be AV 7.
Nippon, on the other hand, would have only 4 players with AV 8 and 7 with AV 7 (Ashigaru/Ninja/Warrior Monks).
I guess Nippon would be hurt more than Northern Nippon by the Ashigaru's AV reduction. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 12, 2017 - 18:34 |
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T_Witch
Joined: Sep 01, 2008
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Apr 12, 2017 - 18:56 |
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New to SL and loving it.
So far the only problem I have run into is with the icons for some of the players.
First the Zoat team players all look far too much alike.The Juven should be smaller than the regular Zoats. If that isn't possible then perhaps change their skin color so the st5 guys stand out.
Also on the Clan Pestilen the Censer Bearers look almost identicle to the monks, on the pitch anyway. Could you make the ball and chain stand out more?
Lastly a similar problem on the Centigor team...though not as bad as the Zoats or pestilens is the difference between the centigors and the ungors. The little tail sticking up helps...but again they should stand out more as being the premier player, perhaps give them a helmet or change the shape of their horns.
Playing with them may not be too bad but playing against them it's a bit confusing. |
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Guardikai
Joined: Jun 23, 2009
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Apr 12, 2017 - 19:00 |
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| Calthor wrote: | | It should be noted that we've pretty much decided on all changes at this point. |
Are future changes still possible or should we stop suggesting things?
And very good point ThierryM. Agreed completely. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 12, 2017 - 19:14 |
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About the icons: Snakemen's icons, with the exception of Constrictors, should be smaller, ST 4 players should stand out. |
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Gnomes are trash
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