MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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 Posted:
Mar 04, 2017 - 19:50 |
 
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The Plague Censer Bearers don't have Secret Weapon but they should have it.
Fezglitch is a player of the same type and he has Secret Weapon.
Lack of consistency.
Garion explained the lack of Secret Weapon rule is due to the Plague Censer Bearers' smoke hiding them from the referee's sight, but it's absolutely not logic.
If that was true, then Fezglitch should have no Secret Weapon rule as well.
Also, if there is so much smoke on the pitch, why Clan Pestilens has Throwers?
How can they throw the ball through such thick smoke? |
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neubau
Joined: Nov 12, 2016
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Mar 04, 2017 - 20:12 |
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Great discussion so far and a lot of points we figured out internally too.
I'm glad that everybody so far agrees with the Oni.
Southern Nippon being too strong hadn't come up yet but giving a human team Gutter Runners and Claw really is a lot.
I also agree with the Half-Orc team, they feel bland, don't fit the WH Fantasy Fluff (anymore) and mass Tackle is a bad mechanic.
Tzeentch is on the list too, especially without the Changeling they are incredibly weak, being forced to field 4 titchy ST1.
With Pestilens i really like the roster as it is, with no SW for the Censers, but I agree with the Throwers being a bad fit. I'd love them to have a slow, higher AV positional instead.
I personally find the Bloodthirster to be not fun to play against, a player like this should not exist. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Mar 04, 2017 - 20:25 |
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| Calthor wrote: | | thoralf wrote: | | Nobody can contact Garion? |
Please read again.
Garion has been contacted. |
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
If you can contact Garion, have him pop in here and officially make you king of SL.
ADD. By that I mean Garion should come here and say what when official changes are being made now through us, it is still Garion making the changes actually means.
***
Meanwhile, a first suggestion - make the unplayable teams playable. By unplayable team, I am referring to those we can't play due to GUI limitations. Or else set them apart. |
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Last edited by thoralf on %b %04, %2017 - %23:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2017 - 20:37 |
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| neubau wrote: |
With Pestilens i really like the roster as it is, with no SW for the Censers, but I agree with the Throwers being a bad fit. I'd love them to have a slow, higher AV positional instead.
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I don't think it's a matter of taste, but simple logic.
Plague Censer Bearers are clearly huge Secret Weapons, not small and concealable like DE Assassins' daggers.
About the slow higher AV positional: what about a Plague Lord? |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Mar 04, 2017 - 23:38 |
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Hi Calthor, great post and it's good to hear that you guys are taking a lead with maintaining and improving Secret League.
I guess my first comment is that I think it's actually very impressive how well-balanced SL is, considering the sheer number of rosters.
In terms of feedback, I have to agree with thoralf, that one of the biggest things that would enhance SL would be to make the rosters that are currently unplayable playable (Malal, Cyborks, etc.). Although, that would obviously need coding on Christer's side and I don't know how much work it would be. Out of interest, has there been any discussion on that, which you could share?
In my experience, whilst I think that overall SL is well-balanced, when it comes to individual matchups, it seems like it is a bit more prone to mismatches than the standard rosters. I feel like it is more rock/paper/scissors, where some teams are quite a hard counter for others. For example, any team with claws (Slaanesh, DoK) are quite a hard counter to Sea Elves (with AV9 being their main advantage) and Half-Orcs (which others have mentioned) are a pretty hard counter to the stunties, or any team that relies heavily on dodging. I don't know if there is much that can be done about the rock/paper/scissors tendency - maybe that is just always going to happen when you have so many different rosters with different strengths and weaknesses.
Also, I feel like SL is possibly even more brutal than the regular game attrition-wise, with the prevalence of Claws and/or fairly low armour. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but some teams seem to be able to become very brutal even at fairly low TV (Daemons of Khorne being the most obvious one).
I'll provide some more specific feedback on rosters a bit later. I am loving Secret League though - it is awesome. My personal faves so far are Slaanesh and Clan Moulder  |
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Burnalot
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 04, 2017 - 23:47 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | Hi Calthor, great post and it's good to hear that you guys are taking a lead with maintaining and improving Secret League.
I guess my first comment is that I think it's actually very impressive how well-balanced SL is, considering the sheer number of rosters.
In terms of feedback, I have to agree with thoralf, that one of the biggest things that would enhance SL would be to make the rosters that are currently unplayable playable (Malal, Cyborks, etc.). Although, that would obviously need coding on Christer's side and I don't know how much work it would be. Out of interest, has there been any discussion on that, which you could share?
In my experience, whilst I think that overall SL is well-balanced, when it comes to individual matchups, it seems like it is a bit more prone to mismatches than the standard rosters. I feel like it is more rock/paper/scissors, where some teams are quite a hard counter for others. For example, any team with claws (Slaanesh, DoK) are quite a hard counter to Sea Elves (with AV9 being their main advantage) and Half-Orcs (which others have mentioned) are a pretty hard counter to the stunties, or any team that relies heavily on dodging. I don't know if there is much that can be done about the rock/paper/scissors tendency - maybe that is just always going to happen when you have so many different rosters with different strengths and weaknesses.
Also, I feel like SL is possibly even more brutal than the regular game attrition-wise, with the prevalence of Claws and/or fairly low armour. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but some teams seem to be able to become very brutal even at fairly low TV (Daemons of Khorne being the most obvious one).
I'll provide some more specific feedback on rosters a bit later. I am loving Secret League though - it is awesome. My personal faves so far are Slaanesh and Clan Moulder |
Sadly any team with a load of tackle will give stunties and teams that rely on dodge a hard time.
The rock/paper/scissor thing is hard to circumvent with so many rosters. Generally in Blood Bowl scissors(claw) beats rock (high av), so it is not something new. Luckily Sea Elfs have ag4 to reducethe amount of claw blocks they receive.
Rosters you mentioned are on the list of things that will be discussed. |
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If Jah is by my side, how can I be afraid? |
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ramchop
Joined: Oct 12, 2013
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Scissors beats Rock? I've been doing it all wrong  |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2017 - 23:56 |
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My only real experience is with the Daemons of Khorne, which I found just way too killy.
I get the idea, but it's not fun for people to play against and not fun to win with because it just means I've rolled 8+ cas in a game and destroyed my opponent's team, again. So the fun bit is where my team fails to hurt anything, and thus can't protect the feeble ball carriers, which also is only good in that my opponent actually has a team left after and not really much fun for either coach because the cas pile up at the end some days anyway.
I understand they win more like min-max pact with the thirster, 1-2 bloodletters and a long bench of 40k 6337 no-apo mutants. But if that's the team you want, that's the team you should design.
From a fluff perspective, the big guy and the positions are over-statted, bloodletters aren't that good of a unit and the bloodthirster is just too easy to use for that stat-line, especially too easy to keep around the ball as a ST 7 SF Guard who will also murder everything.
The horde of frenzy bloodlust is ... an interesting challenge, that's a reason to play them. But really it doesn't stop you murdering everything, just stops you winning games if the cas don't come up. because your positioning is always compromised and your ballers so bad. Like min-max box pact that win a lot less. |
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Khor_Varik
Joined: Jul 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 05, 2017 - 01:12 |
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| MachJacob wrote: | | Pestilens doesn't have any Secret Weapons, and currently, CIBBL is using Secret Weapon rolls for both the other teams and more. |
Bah
Hope it will be implemented on the "official" rosters. |
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King_Mad
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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Mar 05, 2017 - 02:19 |
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Team reroll costs across the board should be reassessed, nearly 50% of the teams have 70k rerolls and less than 20% of the teams have 50k rerolls.
I know secret teams tend to have more out there skill combos that might necessitate such expensive rerolls but it still seems dramatically skewed towards 60k and 70k rerolls for little reason given other than fluff, oftentimes making no sense even in that context (for instance, Tzeentch's teams are awful at team planning and practice because...?)
Also, Centigors are pretty awful. Not sure what's to be done there. |
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Dach
Joined: Dec 25, 2015
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Mar 05, 2017 - 07:22 |
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It's good to hear people have the will to follow on the success SL is having! Cheers to you guys!
As far as roster tweaking go, I can't deny the point already brought up so far, mostly the Oni being too strong and the Half-Orcs being the same plague as the dwarf are in CRP.
I'll try to go over each roster later and give you my pointer of what I would tweak. But overall like Jelly said, for so much different roster SL is pretty balanced already! |
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Calthor
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 05, 2017 - 10:05 |
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| thoralf wrote: | | ADD. By that I mean Garion should come here and say what when official changes are being made now through us, it is still Garion making the changes actually means. |
What this means is that whenever we decide upon changes that we think should be made, we will present them to Garion for approval. If he says NO, they won't happen. If he says YES, they will happen. We agreed upon this by e-mail. I could even quote the e-mail conversation, but I fail to see the relevance.
Garion said he plans to pop by on FUMBBL in the near future for a visit, but even if he does not, this is still equally true. |
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Calthor
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
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Mar 05, 2017 - 10:10 |
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| Khor_Varik wrote: | | Is it planned to add SW rolls to some rosters? |
I certainly consider it an option, but I have a vague memory that Garion didn't like the approach.
Ergo, we'll see. |
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Shraaaag
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
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Mar 05, 2017 - 13:13 |
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I have only played Forest Goblins so far, they have their ups and downs.
Spider Riders are quite good players, both with running the ball and blitzing. Their big drawback is not having general access on normal roll, but that just makes them more balanced.
Forest goblins are okay, but as long as I have my spider riders, I mostly use them as fodder, and to slow down my opponent.
Savage orcs can be very suicidal early on (frenzy with no block and few support players). With 7av. Until I get 1-2 skills on them, I've mostly used them as fodder and support for my spider riders.
The RiverTroll is my only issue with this team. It's just a plain Troll. Aren't river trolls suppose to be foul and rancid? I would probably either rename it to "Troll", or give it foul appearance/disturbing presence and change its cost and/or regig stats accordingly |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Mar 05, 2017 - 14:20 |
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Ok, getting into some of the specific roster concerns that I have:
I think Von Carstein are too strong. With 4 vamps that start with Pro (which is a very useful skill for vamps) and get P access on normals (ok, maybe not such a biggie), for the same cost (110k) as regular vamps :O . It seems clear to me that they are stronger than the standard vamp roster, although perhaps that was the intention? The spirit hosts also give them extra options.
The downsides of the having no apo and only being limited to 4 vamps don't compensate, in my opinion - 4 vamps is a good number and they still have regen and can be replaced by another semi-reliable Pro vamp if they do get killed.
The simplest tweak I can think of would be to increase the price of the von carstein vamps to 120k or 130k. Another idea might be to make the Spirit Hosts 0-16 and limit the number of thralls they are allowed to 0-4 (maybe too harsh) or 0-6. That way, the vamps are supercharged, but are a bit more constrained by having a smaller number of thralls to feed on. Hey, you could even invent a new type of thrall - kind of like an 'igor' - give it AV8 and Thick Skull, but MA5 and maybe AG2. So, their number is more limited and they're less mobile, but more likely to stay on the pitch. Just some thoughts .. |
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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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