MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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 Posted:
Mar 05, 2017 - 14:29 |
 
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I agree that Von Carstein Vampire price should be slightly increased, but Vampire teams really neeed to have lot of Thralls to feed on, so I would not limit the Thralls.
I'd like Dire Wolves and/or Fell Bats, because they fit perfectly the Von Carstein fluff. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Mar 05, 2017 - 14:42 |
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@Matt: I agree that vamp teams need a lot of thrall fodder (I've been playing regular vamps in the NWL for the past 2 seasons myself). Although, with Pro to help mitigate the BL, perhaps the Von Carsteins would be better able to cope with fewer thralls than other vamp teams?
The Dire Wolves/Fell Bats suggestion sounds good. Do you have any suggested stat lines? I guess they would have no hands, being animals? Could maybe give them claws/stab, so they help cause some damage, but can't handle the ball? How about making the bats really fast, maybe even MA10, with Leap/VLL, but give them no hands and ST1. Their only purpose is to rush into the opponent's half and just bog down the ball, to be a nuisance and make it hard to pick up 
Another idea could be to limit the number of the vamps more, to 0-3 or even 0-2, but give them a wider range of alternative positionals, like you suggest Matt. That would effectively turn them into more of a vamp 'alliance' with other things, as opposed to a pure vamp roster. Could maybe give them a couple of Werewolves? |
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Tooby
Joined: Sep 26, 2015
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Mar 05, 2017 - 15:44 |
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Do you know which team doesn't deal well with not having enough thralls? Blood Dragon. You get all those positionals (zombies!) but you often can't field them all if you don't want your vamps to outnumber the thralls. And obviously your opponent is going to be targeting them, too, so they're gone quickly. I feel the team needs a bit of extra something, because at the moment it is difficult to do much of anything with them. Maybe let them feed on the zombies? I don't know how much sense that makes, but it would at least be a reason for you to take them over normal thralls and make use out of them. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Mar 05, 2017 - 18:39 |
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| Calthor wrote: | | What this means is that whenever we decide upon changes that we think should be made, we will present them to Garion for approval. If he says NO, they won't happen. If he says YES, they will happen. We agreed upon this by e-mail. I could even quote the e-mail conversation, but I fail to see the relevance. |
The King who steps down announces the new King, usually. Just like the Goo did by longuishly passing the torch to the new NAF guru. Basic speech acts, really.
It would have been more than relevant if the comittee had access to the backbone of the thing. I've seen open source projects destroyed by unclear mandates and half-baked deliverables. This doesn't risk happening as Garion remains the final arbiter.
So your job is to get feedback. I suppose you also have ideas. It would make sense to put them upfront.
A few months ago, Garion told me by PM that he felt the teams were more or less were he wanted them. So I expect the changes to be more a matter of tuning up what we already have than to revise the tiers. In other words, Nippon is meant to be a good humanoid team, just like Brettonians. As long as they are not OP, all is well. This explains why he changed elementals, which were OP at first.
If that declaration of intent is still valid, then bugs we can back up by experience matters more than feature requests. As usual, you might say.
I can quote him if you please. |
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Last edited by thoralf on %b %05, %2017 - %20:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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Calthor
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
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Mar 05, 2017 - 19:17 |
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The King never stepped down. The King's Council has announced itself, if you will, in the absence but approval of the King, if you really want to use this metaphor. I am not the King in any sense, but rather someone who heads this Council.
Changes are more a matter of tuning, yes, and indeed not a changing of tiers. This declaration of intent is indeed valid. In nearly all cases, there will not be major changes.
Only in case of the Nautican roster would the changes be somewhat more substantial, as far as I'm concerned. (See CIBBL)
For example, for the Von Carstein Vampires, it is more likely that we will modify things by adjusting pricing. It is highly doubtful we would introduce a new positional as was suggested. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 05, 2017 - 19:31 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | | Although, with Pro to help mitigate the BL, perhaps the Von Carsteins would be better able to cope with fewer thralls than other vamp teams? |
Pro can still fail and Thralls, with their AV 7, tend to be removed by their Vampires team mates and opponent players as well.
| JellyBelly wrote: | | The Dire Wolves/Fell Bats suggestion sounds good. Do you have any suggested stat lines? I guess they would have no hands, being animals? Could maybe give them claws/stab, so they help cause some damage, but can't handle the ball? How about making the bats really fast, maybe even MA10, with Leap/VLL, but give them no hands and ST1. Their only purpose is to rush into the opponent's half and just bog down the ball, to be a nuisance and make it hard to pick up |
Even without hands, a Wolf can carry the ball with its jaws.
I don't have a statline.
About the Bats: Fell Bats are quite large ones, not small ones. The small ones gather creating Bat Swarms, but they would be out of place on a BB pitch. |
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Sigmar1
Joined: Aug 13, 2008
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Mar 05, 2017 - 19:33 |
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| Tooby wrote: | | Do you know which team doesn't deal well with not having enough thralls? Blood Dragon. You get all those positionals (zombies!) but you often can't field them all if you don't want your vamps to outnumber the thralls. |
The simple solution to that is to voluntarily field more thralls. The real problem with the Blood Dragon roster is one of too much choice and some coaches unfamiliarity with playing with vampires.
I see three vampires, two grave guard and six thralls being a pretty sweet setup. Yeah, zombies are nice for the LOS, but not critical by any measure.
**Edit** I really dislike the idea of adding more animal players to any roster, Von Carsteins included. I've had a lot of success with the Carstein roster but I'm not conviced it's OP. The four vampire max and loss of Apo are huge restrictions relative to the standard vampire list. |
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Burnalot
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 05, 2017 - 20:19 |
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I think Garion is against animals on the pitch. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Mar 05, 2017 - 21:15 |
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It seems to me that it's not just a case of Von Carstein being too strong (although I think they are), but that they're just too similar to the regular vamp roster. They're pretty much a 'souped-up' version that makes the regular vamp team more-or-less redundant. Personally, I would choose Von Carstein over standard vamps any day, and I'm not convinced that the 4-vamp limit or lack of an apo is enough of a downside. I mean, taking away the apo will have more of a long-term developmental impact, as opposed to the addition of Pro, which is an immediate in game benefit.
I'm not sure that just making the vamps more expensive would do enough to address the similarity to standard vamps. Von Carstein is probably the one roster I would pick out that, imo, is in need of a more major re-think. I guess possibly Half Orcs as well, which have already been mentioned. |
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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Mar 05, 2017 - 21:20 |
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| Burnalot wrote: | | I think Garion is against animals on the pitch. |
Just to point it out, but one of the skills available in the core game is 'Wild Animal' 
| MattDakka wrote: | | Even without hands, a Wolf can carry the ball with its jaws. |
Then you could probably make a fairly good case for the Bloodletters/Bloodthirster having hands as well then?
Actually, rather than No Hands, an interesting extension to the Wild Animal rule could be that, if a Wild Animal that is carrying the ball fails a WA roll then they drop it, as they roar and lose control of themself. |
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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 05, 2017 - 21:22 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | | It seems to me that it's not just a case of Von Carstein being too strong (although I think they are), but that they're just too similar to the regular vamp roster. They're pretty much a 'souped-up' version that makes the regular vamp team more-or-less redundant. |
Yes, I agree, I suggested to add Wolves/Bats to make the roster different from default Vampires.
About Bloodthirster/Bloodletters: these players actually have hands but they are not interested in ball handling at all, hence No Hands. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Mar 05, 2017 - 21:27 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | JellyBelly wrote: | | It seems to me that it's not just a case of Von Carstein being too strong (although I think they are), but that they're just too similar to the regular vamp roster. They're pretty much a 'souped-up' version that makes the regular vamp team more-or-less redundant. |
Yes, I agree, I suggested to add Wolves/Bats to make the roster different from default Vampires. |
But, in that case, you would need to take something away as well to balance them. Otherwise, you're just giving them more options and making them even stronger. Which is where my suggestions on reducing the number of vamps or limiting the thralls a bit more were coming from. |
_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Mar 05, 2017 - 21:29 |
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I'd say the question of whether a wild animal should be able to handle the ball or not would come down to how well-trained they are. I think a solid argument could be made either way, in many cases. |
_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Mar 05, 2017 - 22:09 |
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Thanks, Calthor.
I'll try to find my playing notes. My main concern would be to warn against the idea of buying 2RRs with non-Block teams. Many races are great in the middle run, but most suck at first.
Khorn teams are indeed awful to play against. Will PO be deprecated? This may help alleviate the pain.
The number of match up combinations is so high it's hard to say we have robust data. What was your league experience?
Thank you for doing this. |
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There is always Sneaky Git. |
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neubau
Joined: Nov 12, 2016
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Mar 05, 2017 - 22:39 |
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A couple of teams are hard counters to others, without the stunty rule we use in CIBBL (Right Stuff cancels Tackle on blocks) Half-Orcs (who I find really boring and unfitting fluff wise) destroy stunty teams and low AV teams relying on dodge even harder than dwarfs, because of their speed; Ethereal is good against low AV but bad against high AV (Arktoris absolutly destroys me frequently with his and offers a perfect example of how they should be played); many high AV teams have problems with the abundance of Claw in SL. I don't think this is something we should "balance" around, the rock, paper, scissor dynamic of SL is quite cool. There's quite a lot of races in SL that take a lot of time to become good, many lacking starting skills or have expensive positionals so they have to start either risky with only a few rerolls or without some of their important players, i also like that.
I'd rather go for the more obvious problems first, e.g. the Oni so many coaches mentioned or the 67% winrate of the Von Carsteins (even though Harad's Drackenhof Reds alone inflate it by a lot). Some teams are almost never played, I'd like to see slight changes on them e.g. the Nautican changes in CIBBL. |
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