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noxnoctum



Joined: Dec 08, 2014

Post 5 Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 21:08 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd always followed the logic that "it's easier to defend with a full team while you can still score while down a player" but I've recently started receiving first and have had good results. The difference? I have the initiative. Even if I'm facing a team with a lot more AV - having that initiative gives me the chance to hit his weaker players and dictate (in general) who is at risk each turn. Granted, if they get a blitz or perfect defense this kind of goes out the window, but still - the odds are more in your favor.

I've received as Delves against Khemri and Dwarves and had one player up on each of them in the second half because I had greater control of who was in contact during the first half. Needless to say, they struggled more than an agility team would being down a player while on offense and I was able to capitalize on the kickoff after marking all their players and having a spare.

Then I got carried away and got beat up by Chaos the following game but eh... Razz
Macavity



Joined: Nov 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 21:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Yup. Receive. Score first, make them have to worry about scoring. I like it. And I'm a genius.

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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 21:24 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it's all based on what's your style of play. The coach is 50% of the team.

I like to receive because it allows me to dictate the style of play for the rest of the game. Ideally, I'll score quickly and then again on defense. This means my opponent will start the second half down 0-2 and all his tactics for a 2-1 grind are now out the window.

To win, he'll need to score 3 times...which pushes a lot of fumbbl coaches outside their comfort zone...they are a one trick pony and just don't know what to do after that...so victory to the elves.

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 21:25 Reply with quote Back to top

omg, MACAVITY! I thought you floated to the top of the tank a long time ago!

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 21:28 Reply with quote Back to top

IT"S A FISHIE

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Macavity



Joined: Nov 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 21:45 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:
IT"S A FISHIE



ssshhh! I'm a secret!

_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 21:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Like Arktoris, I prefer to score quickly.. press for a defensive score before half and come out ready to trade punches (You score, I score, I win!) in the 2nd.
Macavity



Joined: Nov 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 22:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Soon Calgary will have no NHL team, due to lack of arena.....

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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 22:22 Reply with quote Back to top

noxnoctum wrote:
I'd always followed the logic that "it's easier to defend with a full team while you can still score while down a player" but I've recently started receiving first and have had good results. The difference? I have the initiative. Even if I'm facing a team with a lot more AV - having that initiative gives me the chance to hit his weaker players and dictate (in general) who is at risk each turn. Granted, if they get a blitz or perfect defense this kind of goes out the window, but still - the odds are more in your favor.

I've received as Delves against Khemri and Dwarves and had one player up on each of them in the second half because I had greater control of who was in contact during the first half. Needless to say, they struggled more than an agility team would being down a player while on offense and I was able to capitalize on the kickoff after marking all their players and having a spare.

Then I got carried away and got beat up by Chaos the following game but eh... Razz


Overrated how?

If I'm kicking first I have the following advantages as an AG team:

1. Full defense that can sustain a few early depitchings and still play defense
2. OTTD on bench
3. A kicker to place the ball where the offense is lacking
4. No downside risk of failing to convert on offense for a half
5. A fuller picture of what kind of offense I NEED to play in the 2nd half.
6. Upside of a defensive score based on matchup

With Delfs and Helfs you can control who gets hit pretty well placing mostly AV8 in harms way which is good enough to find your footing on defense for a turn or two until you decide what mode you're operating in: Ball attack or pitch advancement obstruction.

When do I receive first as elves:

When I have the MB/Guard advantage
When the opposing team has a lot of AV7
When I have an inkling that I can play offense for 5+ turns and not cough the ball up given the opposing coach and team build

But my whole philosophy has a root in the idea that you can win a game on defense and lose a game on offense. The mistakes you make on offense are harder to make up for even if you are a defensive mastermind.

There's no right answer per se but I find the game much more manageable if I don't have to engage in offensive tactics until I have to and instead can focus on a best effort to stymie the opposing offense with the luxury of a OTTD to offset a half long defensive breakdown.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 22:30 Reply with quote Back to top

YES.

Kicking is for chumps.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 22:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:
Like Arktoris, I prefer to score quickly.. press for a defensive score before half and come out ready to trade punches (You score, I score, I win!) in the 2nd.


omg, Craftnburn! It's like I died and went to my 30s!

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 22:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Weird I always play bash teams and I always want the ball the second half because I think it is a lot easier to score with undead or orcs or zons when you can get the attrition numbers up
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 15, 2017 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
YES.

Kicking is for chumps.


Chumps who might in fact be good at the game. But we won't explore a world that isn't oriented solely around licker's beliefs.
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 04:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
omg, Craftnburn! It's like I died and went to my 30s!
I quite literally have no idea what that means. Laughing
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 08:22 Reply with quote Back to top

What mrt1212 said.. almost exactly.

I received the kick, no matter what, for years and had mixed success. Then I started to experiment with kicking first, and often found it better, for all the reasons mrt1212 mentioned.

So I was quite shocked a few months ago when a few coaches I held in high regard boiled it down and said kicking first was always stupid. Perhaps they are mostly dwarf coaches, who perhaps havn't experimented with agility as much as I thought they had. Whateva..

I can simplify "Kicking First is Good" by saying two things that everyone kind of knows anyway..

1) If you kick, the opponent gets 4 free blocks to start the game, but YOU then get 7 free blocks at the half, if he scores. With 7 blocks, you might even remove someone!

If you receive the kick, you only get 4 free blocks at the start of the game, or maybe just 1, if it's nothing but Black Orks or guarded Chaos Warriors on the line of scrimmage.

Your opponent, however, WILL get 7 free blocks against your av7 wuss-bags, and likely be up in numbers for the entire second half, while you, what, sit smugly on a ONE point lead? Very dangerous, and a DRAW is often the best result, even for a very well played 1st half.

I would always choose to take 4 blocks instead of 7. That seems simple.

2) This is Blood Bowl, and wild crap IS going to happen. Not every game.. but in ALOT of games, wild crap will happen. So, given that something unexpected IS going to happen, who is this wild event most likely to benefit? I submit, it is NOT the elves who elected to receive. On turns 1,2,3,4,5 AND 6.. if something very VERY bad happens to the enemy, cool, BUT.. the elves still have to stall until turn 7 or 8 and just score their silly 1 point. The max gain is just an easier 8 turn stall, and the same beating to start the second half.

HOWEVER.. If the elves are on defense in turns 1-6 and something very very bad happens to the enemy, a well coached agility team is very likely able to capitalize on this, and either stop the TD, or even score a defensive TD. And a defensive TD for elves completely changes the rest of the game, on this we must all agree, or there is no point discussing further.

If something very very bad happens to offensive elves turns 1-7.. the game could be lost. But if something very very bad happens to defensive elves.. meh.. the bad-guys just score. No biggie. We were mentally prepared for that.

TL/DR: WHEN something wild happens in the first half, good OR bad, no matter what it is, I would always prefer to be an elf squad on Defense.

So, imo, kicking first is better. It can often win elves the game very early, and allow you to go into cruise mode, saving elf lives.

noxnoctum, no matter what you choose, all coaches are going to fall into a rutt and lose games, so please don't hesitate to go back to kicking first, just because some people say it isn't good. It IS good. Try both.

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